Letter #100: Bernard Arnault (2016)
CEO of LVMH | Q&A at the Oxford Union
Today’s letter is a transcript of Bernard’s Q&A at the Oxford Union in 2016. In it, he discusses piano, Christian Dior, why he hates the word “luxury,” creating desire, the Internet and its effect on brand-building, platforms like Instagram and Facebook, whether Apple is a luxury company (and a fun Steve Jobs story!), globalization, China, what makes a great art collection, long-term threats to LVMH, and more.
Bernard Arnault is the Founder, Chairman, and CEO of LVMH Moet Hennessy Louis Vuitton. He was ranked #1 by Forbes on the 37th edition of their “The World’s Billionaires” list with a net worth of $211bn, ahead of Elon Musk ($180bn), Jeff Bezos, ($114bn), Larry Ellison ($107bn), Warren Buffett ($106bn), Bill Gates ($104bn), and more.
I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did!
(Transcription and any errors are mine.)
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Transcript
Host: Thank you so much for joining us here this afternoon. I'll start off by just asking questions myself. And then after I've done that, we'll open up to audience questions, which I'm sure there are plenty. So starting off with just a question about your background, I was wondering, is it true that your first career choice was to be a professional pianist?
Bernard Arnault: It's not exactly true. No, no, I'm good, amateur pianist. I like very much music. But I realized quite early in spite of playing quite well, another level of becoming a real professional, especially, I have a lot of friends who are very good pianist. I know that some weeks ago, you received my friend Lang Lang. I had, he came, I see him each time he is in Paris, because you know, we have a foundation, Louis Vuitton Foundation. And he gave the first concert there. And last week, he gave a masterclass, which was fantastic. He came with young kids, between 10 and 15, that were playing wonderfully. And the way he's explaining, his interpretation is incredible. But no, I could not be a real professional.
Host: So then how was it that you arrived in the luxury sector?
Bernard Arnault: I arrived in the luxury sector for, I would say, family reasons, because when I was managing family business, which was in a different sector, I happened to enter in contact with a group in France that was having problems, business problems. And in this group, there was Christian Dior. And I was interested by business. And I wanted to turn around this group, and build on which I think was at the time the best asset. And the best asset was Christian Dior. And I was interested in Christian Dior for a long time, because the first time, you know, you were very young, but the first time I was in New York, it's in '71. And I remember the first time I arrived at Kennedy airport. I took a cab. And at the time, the president of the US was Richard Nixon. By the way, they were devaluating the dollar during the summer when I was there. I bought dollars, and my dollars went down. But I arrived at the airport, and I started to talk to the cab driver. And he loved France. And he was interested in politics. So I ask him, and he did not like Nixon. So he was talking about that. I said, "You love France, so what do you know about France? Do you know the French president?" It was Mr. Pompidou at the time. Nobody here remembers, but he said, "No, I don't know the French president. But I know Christian Dior." And immediately, it struck me, and showed that the name of Christian Dior is one of the, if not the most known all over the world, in many countries. When I go to China, when I go everywhere, it's the name which is most well known. So as far back as '71, I understood the power of a name. It's not enough, but I think it's one reason also. When by chance, I was in contact with the real company, I think it's when I had the idea.
Host: And of course, the luxury sector spans over so many different products. But what do you think the definition of luxury is?
Bernard Arnault: First of all, I don't like very much the word luxury, because you have something attached to it, which means show off, which mean something of non significance or something, something that is useless. And I think a better definition is combination of quality and creativity. It's how I define what we do. Obviously, these products, because of the very high quality they have, because of the high level of innovation, they are expensive. But the reality is really behind the appearance, behind the price, it's the quality and the innovation that people are looking for. So for me, it's a definition. And in the group, we are really concentrated on this. How can we create the most innovative products? And the creators, or the scientists that work with us in the many laboratories we have, they have complete freedom to express new ideas. And after that, we have to transform them in reality, all of us, all over the world. But this is really luxury. And when you do that, they often ask a question, How do you market the product? I don't know if this room, you have students in marketing. But I often meet students in marketing. And in spite of the group being number one, which is the students in France, in desirability to work in the group, I always tell them, we don't do marketing. Because marketing is against what a company like us should do. Because marketing, what is marketing? Marketing is to analyze what the customer wants, and then try to follow what the customer is looking for, and test what you create following these trends, and try to do it. We do completely differently. We create new products. And sometimes it fails. But when it's successful, the customers follow. So the marketing is not for us part of the product creation. So marketing is after. So marketing is, when we have these products, how these products, which people want, maximize the desire. Because our business, you asked the question about luxury. Luxury, for me, is how can you create desire. The most important word in our business is desire, how to create desire. And when you have the product, then you have to create good environments in the shops, and you have to present it well. You have to do well... good films, if it's a perfume, good advertisement, either in the magazine or in the internet, if it's a product. That's the way I see it, we see in the group as a way to put product in contact with the consumers.
Host: So following on from what you were saying about how you create that desire for a product, undoubtedly, the internet and those sorts of media streams have affected so many industries. I was wondering is technology and the use of Internet universally a good thing in your business sector, or are there brands that you purposely try to keep offline?
Bernard Arnault: Internet is more and more important. And if I judge by the budget that we spent in the media, we are reducing gradually the amount spent in magazine to increase the spending in the internet or the internet media. So it's more and more important. And what is key also, is the fact that now more and more, the customer, they want to... first, when they want a product, they go immediately on their computer, on their telephone, and they check the product. So, the way a brand is presented to the world is extremely influenced by the Internet, which explains why when you are on the site of a brand, not only you see the product, but you see the history of the brand, you see the craftsmanship, which is behind, and more and more customers are looking at that. And they want to understand what is really behind the brand, and the luxury product, but they want to see more. And with internet, it's extremely easy. And also, they want to be able to buy the product, easily. We have now in many countries, including the UK, you can buy your product and get it very fast in your shop. Or if you go on the internet, you'll see what is available in the shop in central London. If you want such or such product, you can find the availability of the product, which is growing faster and faster. And we more and more invest in the way we work with internet company. So problem being they are, as you will see, more and more profitable, because now they get more and more smart to manage their revenues. For instance, at the beginning, on Facebook, when a brand was sending a message to its followers, you could get them immediately. Today, it's not the case. When you send a message, you can get maybe 1% or 2% of your followers, even a brand like Dior that has millions of followers, they don't get the message, unless you pay something to Facebook. And then you can go on many followers, and you can even get on the competitors' followers, if you pay. So if you are Dior and if you pay Facebook, you can send your products on the followers of Chanel. And for the Facebook, it's a goldmine, because many brands are doing this. And one reason why they are so profitable. Not all of them are doing that yet, but more and more are going to do it.
Host: And do you think that the mainstream platforms such as Instagram and Facebook improve the chances of new brands and young designers to establish themselves? Or is it difficult because they're forced out by bigger companies who can afford much, much more expensive marketing campaigns such as Louis Vuitton and Dior?
Bernard Arnault: As I just explained, it's more and more important, because more and more people are looking at it. So Instagram, for instance, Instagram, it's not yet... you should not yet pay to get your message spread out, but it will come, I think, shortly. So when you do this, it's really extremely efficient. It's becoming extremely costly. And obviously, for smaller companies, it's more difficult. But it's not something that you can absolutely live with. For instance, in the group we have a small company that is not doing any advertisement, that is not doing, so far, what I described on the Facebook, or internet, or Instagram, or anything else, or Snapchat, or something. And this company is small, but is growing 50--it's doubling every year. Because the product is something that we have created and that encounter big success. And we cannot produce enough. It's small. But we started this from scratch, what, three years ago, four years ago. And this year, it will do 50mn. And next year, last year, it was 25. Next year, it will be 100. Small, profitable. So you should not generalize this. It's very important, but you can succeed, at least at a reasonable size at the beginning without it. If release a product, is not just marketing. If you do marketing like a real consumer group, I think that is not possible. But if you produce something that is really unique, it's possible.
Host: And would you say that Apple is now a luxury, or your definition, your improved definition of luxury, a company that...?
Bernard Arnault: Well, Apple is a fantastic company. And I happen to know Steve Jobs. And when he started the shops, he came to us to ask advice. And you can see many of his shops are not far from Louis Vuitton. To me, I would like advice and would like to see if we can put Apple's shops in the same area of Louis Vuitton. And at that time, it was criticized enormously. Everybody thought it's completely crazy to sell Apple products in a shop, because at the time, he was selling to Apple products only through wholesaler. Like for instance... and I remember at the time, Michael Dell saying it's completely crazy, it will never work. So that's an example of contrarian thinking that is working. So I was, not helping, but advising a little bit. And I must say, I wasn't myself, a little doubtful of selling--at that time, it was not the iPhone, it was an iPod product, in the shops. But it was working. And we discussed the future. And I ask him, "Do you think, Steve, that your telephone--is to answer your question about luxury--your telephone is going to work as successfully in 20 years?" And he said, "I don't know, because there are some evolutions, and some newness, and so on, so on." And just to laugh with him, you know that the difference between us, because my Dom Pérignon, I can guarantee you it will be sold and successful in 20 years. And that's also luxury, specificity. Luxury, one part of the products should be timeless. That paradox, to be successful, you have to have the combination between modernity and timelessness. That a combination that we try to keep, and to have a product from Louis Vuitton, which was started in the middle of 19th century, some products are the same for many years. But also, they should present the utmost modernity. That's the combination, and that is what is fun and key to success. So, I don't think you can put it in the same category in spite of it being fantastic, absolutely fantastic company.
Host: Thank you very much. With a world that is constantly globalizing, how do you adapt products, and luxury products, to different communities around the world? For example, how Dolce & Gabbana recently released a collection of hijabs. Is there something that you think your own brands will do in the near future?
Bernard Arnault: We tend to keep the same products everywhere. We don't think people are looking at our products to be done differently in a country from another country. I think they want to buy part of the European eau de vie. And we try to keep that, we try to show what we do in the creativity of our atelier in France. And we don't think we should modify. And obviously, some products are more successful in Europe, in the US, or in the Far East. But we try to keep the same products.
Host: Thank you. And on a different topic, somewhat related, lots of attention is of course, given to China as an emerging market and a very much established market. And I was wondering, how do you approach China, as a market?
Bernard Arnault: China is one of the most important markets now. And it has evolved very fast. I remember the first time I was in China, it was in '91. Not that far. And the first time, in '91 I arrived in Beijing, there was no car, and only bicycles. And we were opening the first Louis Vuitton shop. And I remember, I called my team, and said, "Are you sure we are going to be successful?" And they said two things. One, Louis Vuitton, as a group, we are a group of pioneer. So it's good to start in a country where we have no competitor. We were the first one. And two, strangely enough, since a few weeks, the shop was open, we sell the most expensive products, in a country where everybody was going by bicycle. So we started there, from there. And then, happen what everybody knows. And today, China is very big, very developed, economically. And we have 130 Louis Vuitton shops amongst in many others. And the market is good. There are some questions about China now, because of the growth and because of the problem that you have seen on the stock market there and the currency. But I think the analysts, the observers, are under evaluating the real fundamentals of the Chinese economy. I think it's still growing 6%-7%, which is quite high. The consumption is going well, it's growing. And the state is really in charge, for a lot of reasons that you may not like, but is in charge of making the economy following the path which is oriented towards growth, and they have a lot of reserve. So I'm quite confident that China will stay as number two global economy, and for us, it will continue to be really powerful. You have a lot of... here in the UK, for instance, a lot of travelers coming from China. So I'm not very concerned. But there are changes. A few years ago, when you go to Japan, for instance, you have no Chinese. You have no Chinese. Today, when you go to Japan, because of the low Japan currency, and because of the strong Yuan, you have a lot of Chinese. And you have more and more Chinese traveling all over the world. And the economy is, I think, aimed to continued growth. Maybe not 10%, as it was in the past, but between 5% and 7%, which is quite substantial. So I'm confident. And the Chinese, to answer your question about product in the market, is more and more educated. At the beginning, a lot of brands were successful relatively easily, because it was new, but the Chinese, they have run very fast. And now, they are like the US consumer. They are very, very informed, and very selective. So it's a challenging market. But for strong brands, it's full of potential.
Host: Which are other markets do you see, in the next few years, that you think that luxury groups will be fighting over?
Bernard Arnault: For the economy, you have two big engines, which is the US and China. But in the developed market, the economy is going to continue to be good. As a friend of mine told me some months ago, when I asked him about, What do you think of the future of the economy. He is very confident. But he said, "For the next 20 years, I think we'll have 80% of good years, we'll have 20% of bad years. And in the 20, we will have 10 very bad, and 10 just bad. But I am not able to tell you exactly when the bad will arrive." So, I tend to agree to that. Because today, the world, globally, is going relatively well. But you have this uncertainty about the level of money available, and money created by the banks. The European Bank is a federal reserve. They are printing money, tons of money. So what will happen if this printing of money is not sufficient to really stimulate the economy? And for the time being, it's what we see. The economy in Europe is so-so, in spite of the interest rates being negative and in spite of big influx of money. So, what will be the consequence? Will it create the next crisis? Personally, I think it's not unlikely that within the next few years, there is a new crisis of a different type, because of this amount of money, which is unbelievably high, and because of the level of debt of many countries. So we have to adapt, but also, when you have a crisis, we tried, as a business manager of the group, at LVMH, to take advantage of it. Because we have very little debt. And when the market is becoming to be less good, we can... in the past, we went through so many crises, we are able to grow faster than the competition. And sometimes, also, it's a good period to find opportunities. But you have to be patient. And try to avoid to invest when everything is too expensive. Because you'll see people in the stock market, when it's going to grow fast, they say try to buy. And on the opposite, when it's going down, the people try to sell faster and faster, which is strange. But it's good to be sometime contrarian to that. It's not easy.
Host: Thank you so much. There's just a couple more questions for me before I'll move on to questions from the audience. You were knighted by Prince Charles in 2012 for your services to Britain, and I was wondering on your opinion on what difference it will make to LVMH if Britain decides to stay or leave the European Union?
Bernard Arnault: I think, for the group, economically, it will not make a big difference. As an observer of the situation, I will not interfere, because I am not a UK citizen with a politic decision of the UK. But from outside, I cannot imagine that the UK take advantage economically of a movement like this. I think a movement like this will not benefit to the UK economically, because it will separate your country from the rest of Europe. We also have trade, which is involved with all the exchange, that would be more difficult. So it will create, I think, and again, it's seen from outside, and I don't want to take part of the debate, but it should be economically negative for the UK. So it's all I can say. But we have the same people in France that also want France to quit, not only Europe, but also the currency. It's strange for me, to see that... In politics, if I take the French example, we use as an argument, things, and logic, that everybody knows, is not going to work. But it is good in terms of rhetoric, and power, because it's different. When in France, politicians say we should stop [frontiers]. It's stupid, but it does some power, on the media. And most of the time, the person who says that knows that it's completely unrealistic, but it gives her some [urgent]. There's a difference with business. With business, you see the result. Politics, well, it can just be ideas, and who knows where this idea will lead?
Host: Well, we shall see the result. The last question for me before moving on, is just that the Financial Times reported recently that you may be interested in acquiring Burberry, and I was just wondering if you could comment on this.
Bernard Arnault: Well, I would be very open. I am not very interested. It's a magnificent company. But it's not on our agenda.
Host: Thank you very much. With that, I will move questions from the audience. So please raise your hand if you would like to ask a question. I will give first to the member on the front row in the glasses, the one nearest to me.
Audience Member: Hi, thanks for your remarks. Congratulations on the new Fondation Louis Vuitton's home in Paris. I'm wondering if you can speak a bit about both the foundation and your personal collecting habits, and if you can specifically answer the question, What makes a great art collection?
Bernard Arnault: As an art collection? Ah, the collection... the art collection, in the foundation that we have, we have a collection which is part collection of the foundation, part my own collection. And we have also temporary exhibition twice a year, with association with museum. For instance, this year, we have announced we'll have a fantastic exhibition with a collection that was bought at the beginning of the 20th century by this Russian magnate Shchukin, which is now in Russia, in the Museum in Moscow and in St. Petersburg. And they have masterpieces from painter of that time that nobody wanted to buy. They have masterpieces from Matisse, Monet, Gauguin. We will have 150 paintings coming to Paris. It will be open in October of this year, it will last three or four months. So you should come in and have a look. I think it will last four months. And we wait, we are expecting 1mn visitors in the museum. So this is really something that we try to do twice a year. And for the selection of the art that we own, we are doing it for maybe 20-25 years. And we try to... we have advice, we have a very, very good director who had been the managing artistic director of the museum, the Musees de la ville de Paris. Very, very knowledgeable. And that helped, because she knows the artist. And she knows also it's a good collection, and she is helping us to buy. But I cannot describe all the process. It's her that really knows the artist, and the living artist, that put us in contact with them. We commissioned also some of the artists to do things specifically for the foundation. It's very, very interesting to work with them. And that's a long process.
Host: Thank you for your question. We'll now go for the member on the aisle right there.
Audience Member: You mentioned quantitative easing, and you mentioned the threat of money printing, and the possibility of another crisis on the horizon. What are the two or three things you most worry about for the future of your business? Do you worry about the cost of the materials that you use to make your goods? Do you worry about consumer appetite for luxury spending? If you take a long view, if you think about 10 years or 20 years, what are the things that most concern you for the future of LVMH?
Bernard Arnault: First of all, I think, in a business which is successful, as [is each] business, I always say to my team, you should be thinking that the worst is coming. And you should never be satisfied. And you should be always frightened and under[kiviv]. In a way, state of mind is to be positive paranoid. And always in the situation, think of what can go wrong. And always puts you in question, Is what we do really enough? Are we doing the good innovations? Are we managing in the right direction? What can go bad? In our business, what is really important is to keep the level of innovation. So for the long term, I think we have the teams that assure us to create enough new invention, new products, to keep on with the growth of the market. But it's a constant quest. We see, maybe, every year, 20... between 20% and 25% of new products. And we have to look at them in every detail, to make sure that the level of innovation is really sufficient. Because the tendency in a group that work well is sometimes... and we try to avoid it, some form of auto satisfaction. And when you see the results from the press, I prefer, frankly, to have some critics than to have, as we did, during the last release of the numbers, people everywhere saying, "Oh, it's fantastic, the numbers are great", and blah, blah, blah, which is not good for the state of mind. At the beginning, when I started the group, we did a turnaround. And I think, to be really good long term, you should keep that same state of mind. As a company, even if it's successful, it should be managed, in a way as if it could get under within the next 12 months. And so, it gives you a different perspective, different perspective in terms of investment, in terms of hiring people, in terms of new acquisition. So, that's the state of mind. So with this, that we try really to keep... and we try to see what the future big problems can be. And I see, as I said, maybe a big crisis like the one in 2008, coming within the next 5 to 10 years, but a crisis like this, for our type of activities, which is linked to consumption, it is something we can manage. And not only we can manage, but we can also, in some cases, take advantage of it. You have seen during the last crisis, some investors, should take... some US investors like Warren Buffett, they did, at a time where everybody thought the world was going to collapse, in fact, they did the best investment possible. So at our scale, in our market, we did the same. We bought shares in other companies. When everybody was thinking... [that the end] of the luxury business... [at the end] of almost everything, stock market went down. I remember, in 2009, having bought for the group, shares of LVMH at 39. Today, it's worth 150. So... and people were selling because of the general mentality. When you open the newspaper, you saw that's really easy, and everybody was depressed. So on one end, we tried to be thinking of the worse, but on the other end, we are optimistic. I try to be optimistic long term, but pessimistic short term. And that's good state of mind, I think.
Host: Thank you for your question. We'll now go to the question at the back.
Audience Member: Which brand of champagne made by your group is your favorite?
Bernard Arnault: My favorite brand?
Host: Your favorite brand of champagne.
Bernard Arnault: My favorite brand is Dom Pérignon.
Host: Thank you very much. We'll now go for a question from the member there.
Audience Member: Thank you for coming to Oxford Union. My name is Penny Pan, I'm an MBA student at Said Business School, and I'm from China. So you mentioned China's important strategic market for your brand. It has been and it will be. But it's quite obvious the brand has done poorly in recent years in your main market, China. There are many challenges, among which I would pick up a few, the massive problem of counterfeits, the changing governmental policy for corruption, the rising trend for affordable luxury, where you see competing brands, where, like, a Coach, a Burberry, are doing very well, where LV is perceived as something we don't buy anymore. It's becoming, we call it "tuhao"... we only buy them, people who are rich, but lowly or poorly educated. So it seems that the desire in China is gone. Something you mentioned very important to your product design, your marketing strategy. So how in your mind the brand will face those challenges in coming years in China market? Thank you.
Bernard Arnault: Okay, Chinese... Chinese is an important market, and there are challenges. We try to be following the rules in every country we operate. And in China, we are not producing anything. So, we avoid doing that, some problems that can happen in some factories, where independently of the government, maybe they use workers too young, and things like that. We have a clear policy in the group to really not do anything that is not complying with the best practice. For the counterfeiting, it's clear that China is one of the major sources of the counterfeiting, and we try to fight. But it's extremely difficult. It's extremely difficult, because it's a huge market. And it's a profitable market, which is, in the hands, most of the time, of organized crime. So even if, so Chinese government officially want to help, even for them, it's difficult. Even in China where there is a clear direction, it's difficult. And for our teams, it's difficult also, because we don't want to expose our teams directly to people that can really do... can really harm them. So we have the help of the government. And sometime, we are successful. I have many examples of entire factories producing counterfeiting, that with the help of the Chinese government, we destroy. But the problem is, when we destroy one factory, they will build it some kilometers further, so it's not very efficient. And with the internet, it's even more complicated. Because you have lots of sites you can go with the name of a brand, and you think that you buy the real product. But in reality, you buy a fake. And they're also... we find them, but you have a ton of them, and when some... we are successful in making disappear, new ones appear. So it's a permanent, a constant fight. We spend, in the group, around 100mn a year to fight that, worldwide. It's really big, big problem. For organized crime, it's the second resources after drug trafficking, counterfeiting, so it's huge. And so, it's why it's so difficult to fight. And in some country, the government is more efficient. For instance, in France, it's efficient. Years ago, if you were going to the... because it's an interesting way, years ago, if you went to the beaches in the south of France, you had people working with counterfeiting when you were sunbathing and offering products. And for years, they were just arresting the guy. And after two days, the guy was free. So he came back. And they found something much more efficient. Now, when somebody like that is working, because they passed a law to do it, they seize the products and destroy it. And now, the counterfeiting sell on the beaches in the south of France has almost disappeared. But if you go next country in Italy, they did not do it. Because there are some old links between counterfeiters in some part of the authorities. I'll give you an example. I was in Venice the other day in front of a Louis Vuitton shop. You have counterfeiter in stall selling the products. And so, what do we do? We call the police, and the police come. But before coming, they make a lot of noise for 15 minutes. So the guys pack the products, they go out, and when the police arrive, nobody is left. What can we do? And two hours later, they're back. And so, we call the police, and they're back. And it's completely inefficient. So, it depends on the country. But it's a big... it's a big, a big problem.
Host: Thank you for your question. We'll now go for the member about three rows back on this side.
Audience Member: Given the improved relationship between Iran and the West, and the lifting of sanctions, especially between banks and financial intermediaries, would you look at tapping into the Iranian market and having formal representatives there, given the huge demand that exists for luxury brands, and the need for the Iranians to spend great amounts on such luxury products? Thank you.
Bernard Arnault: No, I know, I know that the Iranian people like very much our products. Yes. And I went myself years ago, in Europe, before the revolution. It was another time. And today, we have already a lot of contacts. And I think we are going to start with one of our brand, which is in fact a brand which is selling other brands, Sephora. You know Sephora? Beauty chain. It's very successful. And we are just about to start with this, maybe next year, in Iran. But I am perfectly aware of the very good taste of Iranian people and I know there is a very good market. And we are just... we are ready, if everything is possible, following the rules about different countries. But we would like very much to go. And if we go, the team... my group will go with me. We would be delighted to go back.
Audience Member: We look forward to welcoming you.
Host: Thank you very much for your question. Unfortunately, that's all we have time for this afternoon. Mr. Arnault, thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure for us all to welcome you here. If I could ask everyone to remain seated whilst Mr. Arnault, myself, and his guests leave. And please join me in thanking, one final time, Bernard Arnault.
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