Letter #189: Larry Gagosian and Glenn Fuhrman (2018)
Owner of Gagosian and Co-founder of Tru Arrow and MSD Capital | Larry Gagosian in Conversation with Glenn Fuhrman
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In this conversation, Larry and Glenn discuss Cy Twombly, Larry’s upbringing in LA, his childhood dreams, working at William Morris Agency with Michael Ovitz, starting his poster business and how he grew it, how he moved upmarket, moving to New York, meeting Basquiat, working with Leo Castelli, bartering for a room (and to get it furnished), and starting a gallery space on Wooster. Larry then shares how he first heard about and met Damien Hirst, breaking an unspoken rule to expand his business, opening up a gallery in Europe and whether that was a “threatening” move, and his relationship with Cy Twombly, Cy’s genius, and their Walmart tradition. Next, Glenn shows four portraits of Glenn from Mark Dennis, Elizabeth Payton, David Hockney, and Basquiat, and Glenn shares his thoughts on each. The conversation then shifts to Larry’s special shows in Malaparte and how they came to be and how they come to be, his role as a tastemaker, his perspective as a collector and why he collects, and the the long-term plan for his collection. Glenn finally takes audience questions, asking Larry what single sale he is most proud of, why an artist might depart Gagosian, whether scalability ever becomes an issue, one artist he doesn’t represent that he wished he did, how patient he can be with artists whose work isn’t selling, and his motivations for throwing parties and hosting intimate dinners.
Larry Gagosian is the Owner of Gagosian, a global network of art galleries specializing in modern and contemporary art. Larry started his career working a variety of jobs including in a record store, a bookstore, a supermarket, and in an entry-level job as Michael Ovitz’s secretary at the William Morris Agency (WME). However, he got his start in the art world by selling posters near UCLA. He closed up his art shop in 1976 when a former restaurant facility became available, and he upgraded from posters to prints. Larry opened his first gallery for modern and contemporary art in 1980, and today employs more than 300 people with nineteen exhibition spaces. He has been called “the most important art dealer in the world” and “the biggest art dealer in the history of the world,” and has represented artists including Cy Twombly, Roy Lichtenstein, Takashi Murakami, Damien Hirst, Richard Serra, Ed Ruscha, Mark Grotjahn, and more.
Glenn Fuhrman is a Co-Founder of and Co-Managing Partner of Tru Arrow Partners and the Founder and CEO of Virtru Investment Partners. Prior to launching Tru Arrow and Virtru, Glenn Co-Founded and served as Managing Partner of MSD Capital, Michael Dell’s family office, for ~20 years. Before joining Michael Dell, Glenn was a Managing Director and Head of the Special Investments Group at Goldman Sachs.
I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I do!
[Transcript and any errors are mine.]
Relevant Resources
MSD Capital (Michael Dell)
Translation
Glenn Fuhrman: Good to be here.
Larry Gagosian: Thanks, Glenn.
Glenn Fuhrman: You nervous?
Larry Gagosian: A little bit.
Glenn Fuhrman: All right, good, not the only one. So actually, before we started on the talk, I wanted to ask you a question. One of the most fun things for me in preparing is just been looking at a lot of images of some of the shows you put on and artists in particular and a lot of time on Cy Twombly, who we'll talk about shortly. But I know this April would be Cy's 90th birthday. What do you have planned? What's going to be going on to celebrate that?
Larry Gagosian: We're going to have an exhibition to kind of celebrate Twombly's 90th birthday in our gallery on 21st Street. We've put together--I think close to 100 works on paper ranging from the early 50s to works he did--right to the end of his life. It's going to be, I think, really a fantastic show. With the cooperation of the Cy Twombly Foundation, and Nicola Del Roscio and many private lenders. It's a show I'm looking forward to very much.
Glenn Fuhrman: It's gonna be great. Awesome. I'll look forward to that for sure. Let's go back to the beginning. Just start a little bit--I know you grew up in Los Angeles. Tell us, what was your family life? Like, was there any art at all? Were your parents interested in art? What kind of a home were you growing up in?
Larry Gagosian: I grew up in a--I guess--middle class home. We didn't really have any art in our home. I wasn't really exposed to art in terms of going to galleries or museums--wasn't part of my growing up experience, nor my parents. So I never really thought of art as a profession for a dealer or even a professional artist. Just wasn't in my radar until I got to college. And when you get to college, you start learning things. And started getting exposed to art. Didn't take any art classes, per se. But there was a gallery in Westwood Village--Virginia Dwan Gallery. That was, I think, the first gallery I ever walked into. It was mind blowing for me. I remember at the time I was--I don't know--in my 20s, and I walked into this white space with--I think it was Robert Irwin show, or something. A beautiful, minimal art show. And I was--I remember that very, very clearly. It was kind of a--I got a jolt from that, and it made me more curious.
Glenn Fuhrman: And when you were growing up in LA, were you thinking like Hollywood? Did you have kind of dreams of Hollywood? Or what were you thinking you were gonna do when you were a kid?
Larry Gagosian: I didn't--Glenn, I really, to be honest with you, I wasn't that ambitious as a kid. I didn't really--and it didn't bother me. I didn't feel like Geeze, I gotta get my act together. Most of my friends weren't that ambitious, so it wasn't a problem--and to keep up with them.
Glenn Fuhrman: So ultimately, you end up at the William Morris Agency. Were you an agent? Were you in the mailroom?
Larry Gagosian: No, I was on a track to, if things went right and I kept interest in it, I would have become an agent. I became an assistant agent. Secretary.
Glenn Fuhrman: And it just never took? I mean, what was--
Larry Gagosian: It's something about the office environment and the way the whole thing was set up. I mean, I met some fascinating people--some of them are still friends of mine. Ron Meyer, Mike Ovitz are still good friends of mine.
Glenn Fuhrman: Was Ovitz there as like a junior nobody the same time you were there?
Larry Gagosian: He was--no. I would never call Ovitz a nobody. He was a go getter. He was, I think, the head of the television packaging department.
Glenn Fuhrman: So he was already on the way up.
Larry Gagosian: And I was just secretary.
Glenn Fuhrman: So you worked directly for him.
Larry Gagosian: I worked directly under Mike.
Glenn Fuhrman: Wow. And was he collecting back then? Do you remember?
Larry Gagosian: I think he had just started to buy like prints or drawings. But he got interested in art quite early.
Glenn Fuhrman: Okay, so you're at William Morris, and you're not loving it now. And then something happens with poster sale? I mean, what--how does that transition go?
Larry Gagosian: Well I got--they let me go.
Glenn Fuhrman: Okay. Just to clear it up.
Larry Gagosian: I think the word is I was fired. Which was kind of a relief for me, because it was just like, $90 a week, I'm working 60 hours a week. It was a lot of work, no pay. But I had no real prospects. And I got a job parking cars in Westwood Village.
Glenn Fuhrman: So really, it was really just about making an income at that point.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah, I needed to make some money. And then, as it turned out, I saw somebody selling posters. And basically, just copied that that guy's business. I bought posters from the same place he bought posters.
Glenn Fuhrman: Now, what was on these posters? What are the posters--
Larry Gagosian: The posters were really--if there's a level below shluck, that would be what this was. Not museum posters.
Glenn Fuhrman: So like a cat with yarn.
Larry Gagosian: Something like that.
Glenn Fuhrman: Okay. So, I tracked it down. I tracked it down. Okay. Now, you--
Larry Gagosian: That's not fair.
Glenn Fuhrman: You were selling these for 15 bucks. Is that right?
Larry Gagosian: I would buy the poster for around $1. And then I would put a little frame on it, and try to sell it for close to 15. If I got anything above 10, it was it was a good sell.
Glenn Fuhrman: Because it's fascinating. You pick the right thing to sell, because this is literally still framed, 15 bucks. Not been a lot of movement in the cat yarn poster market.
Larry Gagosian: Not a lot of appreciation there.
Glenn Fuhrman: Alright, so you're very successfully selling these beautiful posters, right? And then how do you move from there to kind of legitimate art?
Larry Gagosian: Oh, I started selling more expensive posters. And I'd sell a poster with a frame for $50, $100. And then I got a little frame shop upstairs. It was a cheap space available. I think it was $40 a month for a space. And Kim Gordon, who everybody knows is a great musician. She started the groups--
Glenn Fuhrman: Sonic Youth.
Larry Gagosian: She was my framer. And we had a lot of fun. And I was making money, I was making money. Then I met Henry Miller. I talked him into doing a watercolor show in my poster shop. It was a thrill just to meet Henry Miller. And I convinced him that this would be kind of a fun thing to do. So we showed a bunch of his watercolors in my little poster shop. And then I got really excited, I started reading art magazines, I started going as fast as I could, becoming very engaged in making money for the first time in my life. And learning about something that I found was really, really fascinating and enriching.
Glenn Fuhrman: And we you also taken some profits and buying art yourself at that point or not yet?
Larry Gagosian: Not really. Not really. Not really.
Glenn Fuhrman: And so then how did the transition to New York come?
Larry Gagosian: Transition to New York came... I read a--there was a magazine, and there was a photograph by a photographer named Ralph Gibson. And I wasn't particularly knowledgeable about contemporary photographer, but it appealed to me. And I called him, LA Information--no Ralph Gibson. I said, Well, a lot of artists live in New York. I call up New York Information, I got the guy on the phone. Turned out to be a really nice guy, who I'm still friends with. And I said, Ralph, I just saw your photograph in this magazine, Art in America, whatever it was, and I think it's really, really cool. Would you consider sending me some of these photographs so I could sell them in my poster shop? And most--under those circumstances, as you could imagine, most photographers would say, Forget it, end of conversation. But he said, Well, you'd have to come to my studio, and see the work. And so--I'd never been to New York. And he invited me to come to New York, and...
Glenn Fuhrman: And you got a bunch of photographs.
Larry Gagosian: It turned out he was represented by Leo Castelli. Which was very, very fortunate.
Glenn Fuhrman: Did you know at the time who Leo was?
Larry Gagosian: I knew Leo was, yeah. I knew Leo was. I mean, his name was such a big name.
Glenn Fuhrman: Right. So you took a bunch of photographs back to LA.
Larry Gagosian: Back to LA. Put them in my poster shop, sold them. Ralph came out, had a great party. And that's sort of--
Glenn Fuhrman: And then that started you wanting to be more in New York?
Larry Gagosian: More in New York. I started going back and forth between LA and New York. I was living in New York--that was where my gallery was. Well, it was a poster shop at the time, it wasn't a gallery. But I was going back and forth as much as I could afford.
Glenn Fuhrman: And then ultimately in New York, you ended up meeting Basquiat, John Michel Basquiat.
Larry Gagosian: I met Basquiat, yes.
Glenn Fuhrman: And where did you meet him? This is a great photo. You look like an agent here.
Larry Gagosian: This looks to me, well... that's true. That's true. I met Basquiat... It was a fluke meeting. It was a great encounter. Barbara Kruger, who I had met and became friends with in New York, this is like 1981. She called me up. I lost On West Broadway, which I'd bought a couple years before. I actually traded a work of art for it.
Glenn Fuhrman: We're gonna get there.
Larry Gagosian: And Barbara calls me up, says, Larry, I'm in this group show at Annina Nosei's gallery on Prince Street. Annina was a good friend of mine. Would you come over for the opening? Tonight's the opening. And I said sure. So I walked over to Annina's gallery on Prince Street. And she had three rooms, three exhibition rooms. Kind of a long, thin gallery. And the first one was some kind of conceptual, architectural sculpture. Don't recall the artist. The next room was Barbara Kruger. Photographs with--similar strategy to what she does now. And then the next room, the last of these three rooms, there were these paintings in the room that--I tell you, hair stood up when I saw--I mean, it was like electric--literally electrifying.
Glenn Fuhrman: Just literally nothing like you'd seen before.
Larry Gagosian: I'd never seen anything like it. I'd never seen anything like it. And I hadn't heard of the guy. I'd never heard the name Basquiat, I'd never seen a painting by him. I'd had no idea who made these paintings. And Annina walks out, and she says, Larry, do you like these? And I said, They're fucking amazing. I love them. And I said, What's--are they sold? Or what's--and she's, Well no, these three--there were five paintings--these three are not spoken for. And I said, Well, I'll buy all three of them. And so she sold me those three paintings.
Glenn Fuhrman: Do you remember how they were?
Larry Gagosian: And I met Basquiat, he happened to be in her office then--
Glenn Fuhrman: How much were the paintings?
Larry Gagosian: Around $3,000 each.
Glenn Fuhrman: Which was not dirt cheap for an artist you never heard of at that time, or what?
Larry Gagosian: There were so good. They were so good. I mean, there was no mistaking it. And then I met him. He was in her office for the opening. And we kind of hit it off. And we became friends, and I convinced him to do a show in LA. Annina went along with it. She supported it. He painted the paintings all in her basement. And then we shipped him to LA. I don't think he'd ever been to LA before. And we had a fantastic time.
Glenn Fuhrman: And he had a girlfriend at the time, right?
Larry Gagosian: Well, this is just before he had *the* famous girlfriend. That was, I think a year later. He's living in my house now in Venice Beach. And it's one of the craziest domestic environments--I don't want to get into all the details, but--
Glenn Fuhrman: Fun was had.
Larry Gagosian: We had a lot of fun. And then one day he says, My girlfriend's coming out to stay with me for a while. I'm saying Geez, what's--
Glenn Fuhrman: When he's at your house? He's saying, My girlfriend's coming over--
Larry Gagosian: One too many eggs can spoil an omelet kind of thing. Who's your girlfriend? Her name is Madonna. I said, Madonna? What kind of a name is Madonna? And she came out and--she was just starting to--I think she had done her first album or something. She was starting to become a star.
Glenn Fuhrman: Hm. Amazing. And so you met you mentioned Leo Castelli, and clearly Leo was the giant of the day. Did you kind of pursue a relationship with him? Did it just kind of happen? Because ultimately, you were business partners, even. You shared a gallery space together, down in SoHo.
Larry Gagosian: We ended up actually having a partnership. We had we had a building together on Thompson Street. We called the gallery 75 Thompson. We did a lot of great shows there. Primarily, Leo's artists was great for me. We showed Nauman, we showed Kelly, we showed Stella, we showed Lichtenstein. Great shows. All through Leo. And I met Leo, like a lot of other young dealers who wanted--the Castelli gallery was the place to go to see great shows. And one day I kind of met him--maybe Ralph Gibson intro--and Leo and I kind of hit it off well. He liked me. He thought I was kind of--I could--I was a bright young guy, in his opinion. And I could help him. And I started selling art for Leo.
Glenn Fuhrman: And were you like, learning from him in terms of how you saw him running the business?
Larry Gagosian: I don't know if I can say I was learning from him, but I absorbed a lot of his... clients. Haha.
Glenn Fuhrman: Fair enough. Fair enough. You mentioned coming to New York. And I guess really the first thing you did was you got a loft on West Broadway. It wasn't really a proper gallery.
Larry Gagosian: No, it was a raw loft. And I had to make it habitable.
Glenn Fuhrman: And you didn't have money, but you had art?
Larry Gagosian: I traded a Bryce Martin painting, which I somehow acquired. And the owners of the loft building, the ones who promoted it and developed it, they were also in the art business. So I said, Well, I don't have the $40,000, but I have this Bryce Martin painting. And they said, Okay, we'll take the Bryce Martin painting.
Glenn Fuhrman: They really knew enough at that time. And they were collectors.
Larry Gagosian: Well yeah, they knew that Bryce Martin was already an important artist.
Glenn Fuhrman: I mean, it's kind of amazing. So Bryce was really your first--part of your first art world acquisition of this loft. And now, back in a part of your roster and putting on beautiful shows. So it's kind of an amazing bookend. And so--and then, something about--you also didn't have the money to decorate this loft? You really didn't have a lot money?
Larry Gagosian: I didn't have a lot of money. What are you, trying and make me feel bad?
Glenn Fuhrman: So how do you get the place decorated?
Larry Gagosian: Well, Peter Marino who I didn't know--in fact, I don't think I even knew who Peter Marino was, but... I was on the fifth floor. And there was a double loft on the sixth floor, the top floor. This guy named Ara Arslanian--a diamond dealer. That was his loft, and Peter Marina was doing a really lavish kind of renovation for him. And I met Peter kind of going to look at the loft with Ara, and I said, Well, I got this little loft down here. I don't have that kind of money, but if you could maybe help me--and so he did the loft for me.
Glenn Fuhrman: For?
Larry Gagosian: Nothing.
Glenn Fuhrman: I thought he did it for a Twombly?
Larry Gagosian: I traded him a Twombly drawing. I traded him a Twombly blackboard drawing.
Glenn Fuhrman: So the barter never--
Larry Gagosian: He did okay, he did okay.
Glenn Fuhrman: Does he still have it?
Larry Gagosian: I think he does still have it.
Glenn Fuhrman: Wow, wow. All right, and then just while we're down there, so then ultimately, you move into Wooster, this incredible space in Wooster, which Richard Serra takes credit for finding for you, or for being the impetus for you to--
Larry Gagosian: He might have. I don't remember. He was the opening show.
Glenn Fuhrman: He says that he was walking with you, and wanted a space that was big enough to show his works. And this was something that was gonna work. I mean, we had--it's a tough, but you can see the work fits in there nicely.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah, yeah. It was beautiful space. It was a beautiful space. Very clean.
Glenn Fuhrman: And that was a space that you had a lot of great shows at--a lot of seminal shows for me, because that was when I was first really getting into the art world and spending a lot of my weekends going down there. And I remember very well the Damien Hirst show there. That was such an incredible show.
Larry Gagosian: That was a great show.
Glenn Fuhrman: How did you first hear and meet Damien? And that show was a pretty major undertaking, because a lot of that work was pretty significant and had to be manufactured. How was that all--
Larry Gagosian: Well, I met Damien--it was similar to the Basquiat story. When I'd come to London, I started going to London, to kind of get around a little more. And one of my one of the first stops I'd make was the Saatchi Gallery. I'd always go to Charles Saa--because he had the best shows. And he had--he was a genius. He had amazing shows. And I was there one day, and it was a group show, maybe three or four artists. And I walk into this room, and then there's this shark, just gigantic shark, in a case, which turned out to be formaldehyde. I had never seen anything like it. I mean, it was like--it just blew my mind. I had no idea who did it. I went to the phone in the office at Boundary Road, got Charles on the phone, I said, Who did this shark? Is just--Oh, that's Damien Hirst. He's going to be the most famous artist in the world. And so I met Damien through Charles, and started a long relationship.
Glenn Fuhrman: One thing led to another. I mean, I still remember--this is an ashtray. I still remember this thing stunk to high heaven. It's filled with cigarettes.
Larry Gagosian: I still have that, and it still stinks.
Glenn Fuhrman: And this is like a ball up in the air.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah, that's a great piece, with the knives--
Glenn Fuhrman: It's like they're shooting at this. This thing turns. And of course, this is another split animal here.
Larry Gagosian: It was a fantastic show.
Glenn Fuhrman: And one of these spun around, literally, this one, I think was spinning, I remember.
Larry Gagosian: This big, long--this series of vertical vitrines here had a cow that was severed, like--
Glenn Fuhrman: And you could walk in between--exactly. Yeah, I remember that.
Larry Gagosian: But the funny part of the story is that's exactly when mad cow disease was at its peak. And we couldn't get that work of art into the United States because even though it was pickled in formaldehyde, nobody's going to eat it, there was such a blanket quarantine. Frank Lautenberg, who's a great guy, senator from New Jersey--I knew Frank a little bit. I call Frank up. I said, You got to help me out, man. Our show is over if we can't have--this is the centerpiece. And so he called whoever he had to call, and we got--
Glenn Fuhrman: Got the piece in.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah.
Glenn Fuhrman: I mean, it was an incredible thing. Alright, so--and so then, in 2000, you open a London gallery. First in Heddon Street, and obviously now there's a whole bunch of different galleries. It may not seem as big a deal today, but that was a very big deal at the time. It was kind of like, unwritten rules in the art world where you kind of had New York and somebody else had London and somebody else had Germany. Did you view that is like an aggressive business move? And obviously, Anthony d'Offay was the big player in London. Did you see it as a very competitive, threatening move?
Larry Gagosian: I don't know about threatening--I think businessmen always want to be competitive--I don't know about threatening. It just seemed like a good evolution of my business and my gallery, and I was excited about opening something in London, having that kind of an adventure, getting a staff together, working on shows--it got my juices going. So I kind of went for it right away. Since we found a space that was suitable, I said, Let's do it. We started having shows, we ended up moving to another space. And we've continued to kind of grow our business in London, since that first gallery on Heddon Street.
Glenn Fuhrman: Yeah, it's funny to hear you talk about it. You can see like some real enthusiasm about just finding a new property and getting developed and being in a new country. And you've kind of repeated that model quite a bit. But there's an excitement to do that. And oftentimes, it seems like you went to Cy Twombly to open these new spaces. He was just your go-to for so many years, to kind of--I'm having a new gallery, I need a new Cy Twombly show.
Larry Gagosian: It was a great way to pay for the renovation, let me tell you that. And he was just--he was a great friend of mine. Became one of my closest friends. But he was just one of those artists that would just say, Okay, let me see what I can do. And then he would make a show for me. And how much time did he need? It wasn't the time he needed to make the paintings, because Cy painted pretty fast. Like Picasso, or like Basquiat, or... certain artists, it's not about spending five years on a painting, they can do a painting in a day. And it could even be better than the guy that takes five years. But he would--he's not--on the other hand, he wasn't the kind of artist that everyday would go to the studio and work. He had to have some idea of what he wanted to paint. He had to literally see the painting. And when he saw it, and when he felt good about it, then he would go execute. And that's the way he works. So he worked in spurts. He'd work for a month, all day, every day. And then he wouldn't work for six, seven months, eight months. He wouldn't do nothing. He wouldn't work. So he was an unusual artists in that way. And most artists that I've worked with and know about, they go to work in the morning, they make a painting--
Glenn Fuhrman: But he was somebody that if you gave him a day, May of next year, he would be like, Okay, I'll get it together.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah, yeah. I don't want to disappoint you, Larry. One time we--I got to tell you. There's a great--I know we don't have limitless time--but he was painting, he'd could go back and forth between Italy and Virginia. He'd paint a show in Virginia, and then he'd get tired of Virginia, you can't stand this crappy food, I gotta get back to Italy. And then he'd say, These Italians are driving me nuts. I gotta go back to Virginia. So he would go back and forth and he had studios in both cities. And he was going to make a show for his 75th birthday--I think of it now that he would have been 90. And I went down to Virginia to see the paintings in Lexington, checked into a little Bed and Breakfast where I always stayed, and that night, before I went back to my room, he said, Larry, I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to do the show. Really? I was so--horrible news. Because the show was gonna open in about two months, and he said, I don't want to disappoint you, but the paintings are just terrible. They're just mud. I'm sorry. I don't know what to do. I can't do anything about it. So I--Oh, man. So go to bed, and then seven o'clock in the morning, I get a call from Cy, 730 in the morning, I get a call from Cy, Don't leave. He repainted every canvas that day. And those paintings are in Glenstone and with The Broad--
Glenn Fuhrman: Which body of work was this?
Larry Gagosian: This is called--what was it called--Passage of Time. Those pale blue paints with the white--
Glenn Fuhrman: I think of them as like the birthday painting, because I think it was right around his birthday, you had a show.
Larry Gagosian: They're all beautiful paintings. I never saw what the underlying mess was, but they came out beautiful.
Glenn Fuhrman: Alright, so this is an early one where maybe you guys went to Target together?
Larry Gagosian: No, he was a Walmart guy.
Glenn Fuhrman: Walmart guy?
Larry Gagosian: That was part of our routine. When we'd go to Virginia, he liked going to Walmart, and we'd wander up and down the aisles for a couple of hours. I mean, it was like, very relaxing.
Glenn Fuhrman: Seriously? What was he buying at Walmart?
Larry Gagosian: He just liked looking at the stuff, and just kind of--he just--it was like a--
Glenn Fuhrman: Larry, let's go to Walmart.
Larry Gagosian: Some kind of a Zen thing. Walmarts in these rural areas are really almost like civic centers. I mean, it's where people kind of congregate and...
Glenn Fuhrman: Alright, so I got a few in a row here. So this is relatively--this is a while ago. So you're looking at Cy, you’re looking at that painting, I kind of think you're looking at that painting, like, That looks really good.
Larry Gagosian: That's a good one.
Glenn Fuhrman: And then you go here, and you're looking at it like, I really think that's good.
Glenn Fuhrman: And this is the one where I think you asked Cy if you could buy it, and he said yes.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah.
Glenn Fuhrman: There. Now you're pretty excited. Yeah.
Larry Gagosian: That was a good one.
Glenn Fuhrman: And this is a great image of you and--
Larry Gagosian: That's when Richard and Cy won the Golden Lion. They gave them each the Golden Lion Award in Venice. I think Cy was showing Lepanto and Richard had these torqued ellipses.
Glenn Fuhrman: So here's--I think these things you're talking about.
Larry Gagosian: These are the paintings I'm talking about, yeah.
Glenn Fuhrman: They definitely look spectacular.
Larry Gagosian: They're beautiful.
Glenn Fuhrman: It's the winter paintings.
Larry Gagosian: That's the winters, those are Britannia Street. This is the roses.
Glenn Fuhrman: London. So this is Rome. Spectacular gallery there.
Larry Gagosian: Rome. Opening the gallery there.
Glenn Fuhrman: And then in Greece.
Glenn Fuhrman: One thing that's amazing--I was told that you have more gallery space than the Tate Modern now.
Larry Gagosian: Than who?
Glenn Fuhrman: Than the Tate Modern. More square footage?
Larry Gagosian: Wow. It's kind of scary.
Glenn Fuhrman: You have better sales too, though.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah.
Glenn Fuhrman: Is there a geography you want to conquer next? Is there any place that you can see that you don't have--
Larry Gagosian: Not right now. I think we got enough galleries for the time. You never know. When something comes along that really seems interesting, you think about it. But I don't feel like there's--I don't feel like I need to open another gallery right now, no.
Glenn Fuhrman: So I wanted to talk a little about portraits. You've sat for a number of portraits, and a lot of artists have also chosen to paint you. This is one Mark Dennis did of you, which is a good painting.
Glenn Fuhrman: And then here we have Elizabeth Payton, which you sat for.
Larry Gagosian: She's a great painter, but I don't know--that painting--
Glenn Fuhrman: Serious. You look serious.
Larry Gagosian: I don't know if she--I thought she liked me, until I--
Glenn Fuhrman: And then a great David Hockney painting.
Larry Gagosian: Oh, that was--it was so much fun sitting for David.
Glenn Fuhrman: And then the Basquiat.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah. He did that in his studio when I was standing there.
Glenn Fuhrman: So when you're sitting for Basquiat--when you're sitting for all three of them, but I guess maybe the Hockney in particular, is it a kind of a work? Is it fun? Are you chatting while you're doing that?
Larry Gagosian: Well, Hockney, he wants you to give him three days. And I could only give him two, and I think he was slightly irritated. But I literally had to get back to New York, and I had no--I couldn't do anything about it. So that was a two days sit. Elizabeth Payton is really--she's a lovely woman. You go to her apartment in the village and she puts on Dylan, and you just sit there. And it was very pleasant. Basquiat painted that thing, probably in a couple hours.
Glenn Fuhrman: Right. And that was fun because you guys were such good friends at that time. And so the obvious one that I would show, if I had it, but it's not here, is the Warhol portrait. So how was there no Warhol portrait?
Larry Gagosian: Well, because he died. Because we had--he wanted to do my portrait, and we never got around to it. And then he died. He was only 58 years old. It was... nobody expected him to die.
Glenn Fuhrman: Incredible.
Larry Gagosian: I wish I had done that when he was around. Yeah.
Glenn Fuhrman: Alright, so I wanted to just look at--talk about Malaparte for a second.
Glenn Fuhrman: So when you look at this, and talk about expanding gallery spaces, this is a spectacular house on a cliff in Capri, built in like 1937. And somehow or other you looked at this and you're like, I don't know, my friends could come up these 200 stairs from the water, and we could maybe figure out a way to get a big table on the roof, and we could fill the house with paintings. Yeah, let's have a gallery show there. How does that happen?
Larry Gagosian: Yeah. Well, it happened because the owner of the house is the original Malaparte family. And the lady of the house is really a wonderful, warm person. And I think she liked the fact that we were bringing this new life to to the house. And so she was very accommodating and happy to let us do this. We got a local restaurant in Capri that brings the food in. 60 people. One long table on the roof. And then the the great thing about the show is it's only one night. And if you want to buy a painting, you have to go there and buy the painting. No photographs are distributed, no advance--
Glenn Fuhrman: Slightly exclusive.
Larry Gagosian: Well, it's just--it's a way to--well, because it's one night. You can't say, Well, I can't make it. I'll be there in a week. Forget it. So you got to show up.
Glenn Fuhrman: Right. I mean, it is a pretty spectacular place. And it's usually a full moon.
Glenn Fuhrman: These are some of Larry's guests on the different boats here. This one is definitely one of your guests.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah.
Glenn Fuhrman: And then this is the dinner on the roof that they squeezed a table in. There's Bryce, and--
Larry Gagosian: There's a full moon right there.
Glenn Fuhrman: Ed Ruscha and the full moon. Definitely a nice evening. Here's--this is a Twombly show that was there in '15.
Glenn Fuhrman: And this is a house that people are still living in, just to--
Larry Gagosian: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Glenn Fuhrman: So, there was a Grotjahn show the following year.
Glenn Furhman: Within the bedroom.
Glenn Furhman: I mean, just absolutely incredible, incredible experience. Happy to say I was there, which we enjoyed every second of it. When you put on some of these incredible shows, you're kind of the inventor of these kind of museum quality shows, whether it's Picasso and whatnot, where nothing is for sale. First of all, how's that business model work?
Larry Gagosian: Well, that's not really--I mean, we don't say nothing is for sale. But it's basically very, very little is for sale. We're not selling the paintings that are lent by the MoMA, since--but sometimes it's a good context to sell a painting or two. Very few of them are for sale in these historical--
Glenn Fuhrman: But is it like you will start with one very valuable painting and then build a show around that one painting?
Larry Gagosian: There's all different ways. Sometimes it comes from a group of paintings that we're able to get, or it comes from a foundation, or--there are different ways to put it together. It depends on the artists and--
Glenn Fuhrman: And then they usually curate it internally.
Larry Gagosian: Internally.
Glenn Fuhrman: But now you have like world class curators on the staff.
Larry Gagosian: Right.
Glenn Fuhrman: That's also part of the business model now.
Larry Gagosian: We sometimes use outside curators, if it makes more sense. But usually we do it ourselves.
Glenn Fuhrman: And is there anything in the works that you can kind of talk about that's kind of in that realm?
Larry Gagosian: Nothing I can talk about right now, actually.
Glenn Fuhrman: But there's always something like that.
Larry Gagosian: There's something coming, yeah.
Glenn Fuhrman: Something coming. Something exciting. I want to talk a little bit about some of your business practices. You pay commissions as part of the sales process of your salespeople.
Larry Gagosian: Right.
Glenn Fuhrman: Doesn't seem like anybody else does, and if anybody does, it's not really well known. Why is it so successful for you and nobody else has figured that out?
Larry Gagosian: I can't speak for other people. I mean, I just think if people are talented and they're able to particularly make sales and--which is obviously good for the gallery, good for me, good for the artists we represent, why not give them a commission? Why not? I think it motivates people. Sometimes it over motivates them. And you have two or three people fighting for--but those times are really few and far between. I just think it's a good way to--I can't speak for what other galleries--
Glenn Fuhrman: Has there an evolution? Because it seems that maybe some of that infighting that you alluded to, you heard more about that years ago, you don't hear about it as much. As the business maybe has matured, is that a little bit less prevalent?
Larry Gagosian: Whose business?
Glenn Fuhrman: Your business.
Larry Gagosian: No, we still do the--we still pay people--
Glenn Fuhrman: No, but I'm saying there's less infighting, there's less of the competition.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah, yeah. Because of--systems and more of a clearer understanding of what the parameters are. And when you have an issue that comes up repeatedly, then you kind of--you have to look at what the structure is that may be leading to that kind of friction. And you're not going to eliminate 100% of it, but it's a good observation.
Glenn Fuhrman: And as I think of who your clientele is, it's unprecedented the number of incredible business people that you're dealing, with whether it's Miuccia Prada--name a CEO, name a global successful business leader, they're a client of yours. Can you think of things that you've gleaned from them that you've applied to your own business? I mean, are you learning kind of from them in some ways, as they may be kind of doing business with you?
Larry Gagosian: Maybe not directly, but I think the lesson you learn from successful people is just the obvious stuff: work hard, stay focused, and treat your treat your people correctly.
Glenn Fuhrman: Are you are you more of a carrot or a stick as a CEO?
Larry Gagosian: Maybe you'd have to ask them. I don't know. I'd say carrot.
Glenn Fuhrman: You'd say the carrot works. And as the business has grown, Larry, it's hundreds of employees, 16 galleries, supposedly $1bn+ a year in sales. I can't think of any other billion dollar business in the world that theoretically could disappear, because it's so reliant on the leader. Is your business something that could survive you? Is there--are you working on that? Is that realistic?
Larry Gagosian: Well, we're working on that. We've--I've just started really focusing on that. And we're doing some things internally and in other ways that I don't really want to get into here that will, I think, get us beyond me, or my ultimate demise, or retiring. I don't plan on retiring, but I--it's a great--I think we've built a great gallery, a great business. And I would like to see the--I mean, the tra--I don't have children. And that's usually how these legacies are established, with generational--and I don't have that. So it's a little trickier. But this is something that's really important.
Glenn Fuhrman: So it's something you care about.
Larry Gagosian: I do care about it, yeah.
Glenn Fuhrman: And then, in terms of just--last thing on the market, the current art market. It seems like there's a little bit of a bifurcation between the kind of top tier galleries that seem to be thriving, opening new spaces, oftentimes building giant new buildings around the corner from their existing, recently new, giant, new builds. And yet the middle, and certainly the smaller galleries are really struggling, and a lot of them are going out of business. Is that something that you think is going to continue? Or do you think that's just the nature of the beast and the bigger galleries are going to just play it to a broader market? I mean, how's it going unfold?
Larry Gagosian: I think these things run in cycles. And I think now there's a--consolidation, I guess you can use that word, where galleries are actually buying other galleries, literally buying other galleries, to kind of scale their business up. They could overshoot. I mean, there's three new towers, art towers, being built in Chelsea right now. 50K, 60K, 70K square foot art towers, for one gallery. So we'll see how that works. And maybe it goes too far that way, and then all of a sudden a new group of dealers comes in at a different level, and it looks like a refreshing alternative. I do think that when things are good in the art market, everybody kind of wants to be an art dealer, and everybody wants to open a gallery, and there's not an infinite supply of talented, interesting artists. So I've seen this cycle before, and I think it's sort of a natural thing. Obviously it's painful if you're the gallery that's under that pressure, or you have to close, but there's no guarantees in business.
Glenn Fuhrman: Right. I mean, even with these giant buildings going up, it seems like such a core part is still art fairs. Is the art fair at this point a necessary evil? Do you enjoy the art fairs?
Larry Gagosian: They really become more and more important in terms of the bottom line of galleries and generating revenue and exposing your artists to a much broader audience than you could in a--even even in a major gallery exhibition. And I think that trend's going to continue.
Glenn Fuhrman: Do you still have some artists that say, I just don't want to be in art fairs or--
Larry Gagosian: Occasionally. But most of them do want to be in. You can't put every artist in every fair. I mean, some artists just don't produce enough work to do that. Other artists, if they're more productive, they can distribute to fairs. But, yeah. It's a great part of the business. I mean, there's a lot of fairs now. Sometimes we go, Geeze, there's another Fair. Where are we going to get the--you have to go out and buy art to put in the next fair, because you can't always ask the artists just to keep producing work for fairs. I mean, they'll just say, Hey, listen--but it's definitely a plus for the overall art business. I think it's a bigger piece of the pie than it was 10, 15 years ago.
Glenn Fuhrman: Huh, interesting. So in addition to being a great dealer or art, you also have built one of the great collections in the world. These are all works from your own collection. This great Jeff Koons painting.
Glenn Fuhrman: Incredible Lichtenstein.
Glenn Fuhrman: Iconic Ed Ruscha.
Glenn Fuhrman: I mean, this is a small snippet. That's Warhol.
Glenn Fuhrman: Great Cy Twombly.
Glenn Furhman: Of course, this amazing Richard Serra at your place out in the Hamptons.
Glenn Fuhrman: But what has been your perspective as a collector? Have you particularly bought these things just because you love them and wanted to have them? Were they things that you kind of bought thinking that you might sell them down the road? I mean, what was the nature of the collecting, from the beginning and to today, if it's evolved a little bit?
Larry Gagosian: Well, as my business grew, and as I had the means to buy more major things, and that obviously, had a bearing on my collecting. But I think, from the earliest time of my gallery, when I started buying drawings--I just liked--I like collecting. I like acquiring. I like living with art. I like the process--it's almost like another process. I mean, I can afford to do it because of my business. But it's sort of a separate--it's almost like a separate activity. I found also, just, parenthetically, the people who work as the gallery, salespeople particularly, I'm talking about--I will say, that sounds a little too crude, because they do a lot of other things, they work with artists, they work on--but one of their functions is selling. The people at the gallery who buy art, collect art for themselves, almost always end up being the most successful. It's not like--if you just just go in to make some money and sell some art, it doesn't, it hasn't penetrated you--
Glenn Fuhrman: There's an underlying passion that's part of it.
Larry Gagosian: You need to know what things are worth, and you kind of get--it gives you a different sense of what you're doing. But for me, it's just--I just love--I love building a collection. I think it's...
Glenn Fuhrman: And is there a bright line, or are the things that you have in your collection also could be for sale if somebody offered--
Larry Gagosian: Very rarely. I mean, very, very rarely do I sell things that I really consider my private collection. I mean, any of the things you've shown here, I could sell very easily for a handsome sum. But if you start doing that, then you don't have a collection. It's just inventory that you hang in your house. And I do look at it as a different--as a whole different thing. It's not just inventory in my house. It's stuff that's part of my life that I live with, that I enjoy getting up in the morning and seeing them on the wall, and when I go to bed at night, I enjoy seeing them. It gives me a lot of pleasure. And I think that's what makes a collector.
Glenn Fuhrman: And what's the long term plan for what happens to your collection.
Larry Gagosian: I'd like to be able to afford to give it away.
Glenn Fuhrman: To keep it together as a--
Larry Gagosian: Well, I mean, I do have to sell. I can't keep everything together. But keep the vast majority of it together, and to somehow make it as a gift--
Glenn Fuhrman: To have an identity of the Gagosian--
Larry Gagosian: I don't know what form that's going to take. Probably some other institution. I'm not going to build a--I'm not Mitch Rales, I'm not going to build a Glenstone, or Eli Broad--I don't have the means to do that, or really the ambition to do that. But I would like it to be--I would like it to live on as a collection.
Glenn Fuhrman: Well let's hope it's not for a long time. It's a beautiful collection, and I know it's continuing to grow. Alright, let's take some questions from the audience here that everybody was nice enough to submit. Okay, this is: I'm a 22 year old art history major who wants to open an art gallery. What advice would you give me?
Larry Gagosian: Wait a couple years.
Glenn Fuhrman: What single sale are you most proud of?
Larry Gagosian: I can't say. I mean, luckily--quite a few. It's hard to say one--
Glenn Fuhrman: Was there one major one that was a seminal sale, either earlier in your career, or to a collector you had been trying to get into forever, or--
Larry Gagosian: Well, when I sold the Mondrian Victory Boogie Woogie, which is arguably the most important painting Mondrian ever made, one of the great modern masterpieces of the 20th century. Burton and Emily Tremaine owned the painting for many years. They bought it from--I can't remember the dealer's name right now--but they literally bought it off Mondrian's easel. It's an unfinished painting. And it's hanging in their apartment on Park Avenue. And it was known that they would sell it and nobody could find a buyer. Nobody came up with the right price. And I was able to sell that painting. It was a breakthrough for me. I had never sold anything at that price before. And historically important before. And I was very proud of that sale.
Glenn Fuhrman: You're known for having artists come to you from other galleries. Sometimes it does happen the other way around. What could make an artist depart Gagosian?
Larry Gagosian: They think they can do better elsewhere. They think that another gallery--or maybe they're tired of the relationship, or maybe they think they need a reboot with a new dealer.
Glenn Fuhrman: Does it ever--do you take it personally? Does it--I mean, you can't be happy about it.
Larry Gagosian: It's business. I don't really take it--it can be--it can annoy me, for sure. But you get used to it after a while. I mean, there haven't been a whole lot of--
Glenn Fuhrman: There've been several that have left and then come back.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah, and sometimes they come back. That happens also. And sometimes they leave, and if you say Oh, you lost that artists, well, the truth is, you didn't really want to keep them, necc--I mean, this is not sour grapes, I'm just saying that that also happens, where you kind of lost your enthusiasm for the work, or maybe it just doesn't interest you anymore. I mean, there's a balance between being loyal as a dealer, which is what everybody wants to be--loyal. And if the work just doesn't--if the artist is really not making good work, and it's going on for quite a while, it's hard for a dealer to be loyal under those circumstances, particularly for the works not selling, and an artist may feel that maybe in another--with fresh blood, a new dealer, they can get activity going. I understand that.
Glenn Fuhrman: Right. And does the scalability ever become an issue? I mean, are you just not able to be there for as many artists as they want you to be there? I mean, you have 120 artists listed. I mean, however many artists that are really putting on shows for you, it's a large number.
Larry Gagosian: I spend a lot of time going to artists' studios. Anybody who works in the gallery, who knows me, I'm very hands on. One of the things I enjoy is leaving the gallery in the morning, or leaving home in the morning, going to maybe two or three studios, and that's my whole day. I love that. There's certain artists that need more attention, because of the logistics of how the work is made, or maybe they just need more face--whatever the reasons are. Some artists, they don't necessarily want you to come to the studio. So there are all kinds of--but I like going to artists' studios. I never feel like I don't have enough time. Sometimes when a new artist will come to the gallery, they'll say, Larry, you have all these galleries, you got all these artists. Am I gonna ever see you again? And they're usually pleasantly surprised that I do like they go--
Glenn Fuhrman: You're there.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah, I'm there. I want to see what's going on. I want to see what they're making. I want to talk to them.
Glenn Fuhrman: And every one of the artists that you do a show of, you're representing--you like the work.
Larry Gagosian: Yeah, absolutely.
Glenn Fuhrman: So you're the tastemaker, ultimately, making the decisions as who comes into the gallery?
Larry Gagosian: Well, we have a committee, I guess you can call it that.
Glenn Fuhrman: Yeah, but clearly if you don't like the work, it's not coming.
Larry Gagosian: And if I don't like to work, it's gonna be tough to get me to change my--
Glenn Fuhrman: Okay, so this is a question: What one artist did you pass on tha you wish you did not?
Larry Gagosian: Ooh. I can't think of one. I can think of artists I wish I represented that I don't represent.
Glenn Fuhrman: Alright, that's-- we'll take that. We'll let you have a replacement question. What artist don't you represent that you wish you represented?
Larry Gagosian: Charlie Ray, probably would be the one that I wish I--because I just think he's a great artist. And I happen to have put a collection of his work together. He--I must have six or seven major pieces by Charlie. I think he's a great artist. I don't represent him. I think he has a great dealer. Matthew Marks is a genius art dealer. He's doing great for Charlie. But do I wish I represented Charlie? Absolutely.
Glenn Fuhrman: And of course, there's others, but like, Gerhard Richter, I'm sure you would--
Larry Gagosian: Gerhard Richter, yeah. But--yeah, Gerhard Richter and the whole--Charlie kind of, I know him generationally is a little closer to me in that way. Gerhard Richter, who wouldn't want to represent Gerhard Richter?
Glenn Fuhrman: Okay. You're known for your business sense. What happens if you like an artist but their work does not sell? How long--how patient can you be with them?
Larry Gagosian: Well, it depends on why it doesn't sell. I mean, some artists, their markets are very slow, the work is very challenging. I can be infinitely patient with an artist like that. I really don't base representing artists on what I--sometimes people come to me, You could represent this artist--I'm not going to name an artist, because it's a bit of a pejorative--and they sell like crazy. You'll just coin it, Larry. I'm not interested in that story. That might surprise people, because I'm sort of thought of as a guy who wants to make money, wants to sell. But if I don't respect the artists--there are artists that we represent that just now, after they--Walter di Maria. I mean, I've worked with Walter di Maria 20, 25 years. Very difficult, very slow sales. But such an important artist, in my opinion, that I never ran out of patience.
Glenn Fuhrman: Okay. Do you see a common--can't read that one, sorry. All right. You are well known for throwing incredibly fun parties, or having small dinners with fascinating groups of people. Is this just your own enjoyment? Or is it part of a business model that you think your clients would want to be a part of?
Larry Gagosian: I think it's both. But it's not a calculating thing, like having--I love having dinner. I love entertaining. I always have. Since I was a kid. When I was in grammar school, for some reason, and we had a little crummy little house we lived. My friends would all come over to my house. I don't know why. So it's always been--that's just the way I'm wired. I like entertaining, I like having people over. Is it good for business? Yeah, sometimes. Not always. But I enjoy it. I enjoy being around people.
Glenn Fuhrman: Larry, thank you very much. Thank you all very much. Great talk.
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