Letter #213: Gabe Plotkin (2020)
Melvin Capital Founder, Charlotte Hornets Owner, and Tallwoods Capital Founder | Achieving Success: An In-Depth Interview with Gabe Plotkin
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Today’s letter is the transcript of an interview with Gabe Plotkin. In this interview, Gabe discusses the secret to high performance, team vs individual skill, finding little ways to improve every day, good times and bad times in the stock market, defining moments in his finance career, his hiring process, running Melvin Capital and the similarities to professional sports teams, building organizations and teams, Michael Jordan, failure, resilience, selective memory for sports statistics and stock behavior, how he met his wife, the greatest investment in his life, his favorite sports heroes, his mindset and favorite quotes, opportunities and investing in the stock market over time, the power of compounding, what he would be doing if he wasn’t in finance, a number of Michael Jordan stories, Melvin as an organization, and more!
Gabe Plotkin is the Founder of Tallwoods Capital and the owner of the Charlotte Hornets. Prior to launching Tallwoods and acquiring the Hornets, Gabe founded Melvin Capital, which he grew to managing ~$8bn. Before Melvin, he was a portfolio manager at Sigma Capital, a division of SAC Capital, where he oversaw a $1.8bn portfolio. He was recruited to SAC after three successful years as a Managing Director at North Sound Capital. He started his career at Henry Crown and Company as a Private Equity Analyst.
I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did!
[Transcript and any errors are mine.]
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Transcript
Conrad Louis: Well hello there. Have you ever wanted to be a billionaire? Today we are talking to an extremely talented and high performing guest to find out what habits we can incorporate into our daily lives for success. He is a minority owner of the Hornets with Michael Jordan, and a stock picking wizard. Gabe Plotkin, who manages billions of dollars of assets, is here to discuss everyday habits to help us assimilate a successful lifestyle.
Hailey Page: You are actually the first guest we've ever had on our podcast. So thank you so much. But I'm very curious -- have you done a podcast before?
Gabe Plotkin: This is the first. I've been interviewed in various settings, from an investment perspective. But podcasts are new to me. I like Conrad a lot. I was afraid you wouldn't be my best friend if I didn't do this.
Hailey Page: Alright, so you're on a podcast that has a lot to do with relationships and stellar human beings. I think you can speak very well to both of these categories, from the dynamics in how you run your team and instill company culture. It takes a pretty stellar human, if you ask me. So we're so excited to hear what you have in your industry value wise, and you're the first of your kind on our podcast.
Conrad Louis: So for those of you who don't know who Gabe is --
Gabe Plotkin: Everyone.
Conrad Louis: He was a top trader for Steve Cohen's fund, SAC, and then he started his own shop in 2014, called Melvin Capital, named after his grandfather. And since then, Melvin has returned some of the most impressive numbers in the hedge fund industry.
Gabe Plotkin: Good research.
Conrad Louis: A cursory Google search.
Gabe Plotkin: Unbelievable. So this Google thing works. All right.
Conrad Louis: Yeah, we should invest. So Gabe, you're consistently one of the highest performers in your industry. What's the secret, man? Help us out. What are we doing wrong?
Gabe Plotkin: That's a fairly broad question. And on some level, I think it's setting your own expectations. How are you defining yourself? And I think, for me, wherever I've been in my life, it's just, do the best you can, just keep getting better, find a way to improve every day. And when I started in this industry, people say, Oh, is this your plans -- and some people have those goals, those plans. My goal, my plan, was like, just get better every day. Just find a way to keep improving, figure out what works in this business, and keep building upon it. And over the course of many years, that brought me to a place that I never would have envisioned when I started. But that was really the focus is -- how do I just keep improving? And if you're hard working and you have a decent ceiling, good things can happen. And so even now, it's just keep getting better every day, I don't really think about -- I look at the size of my funds, and where we are in the industry, and it's shocking to me, in terms of what we've accomplished, because it's sort of just been a series of dates, increments.
Conrad Louis: How much do you attribute team versus just individual skill?
Gabe Plotkin: I think in the early days, to -- when I got to SAC, I was running $500mn, and I had a couple guys on my team. And I think I could have been successful driving everything at a relatively smaller size, but eventually if you want to grow and build and build a business, you have to start hiring good people, you have to really train people, you have to invest in those people, understanding that the more you teach them, the higher your organization can go, the better your organization can become. And it becomes more fulfilling, because you're sharing it with other people as well. And so, over time, it's really become about the team. And they've bought into what we're trying to accomplish. And I actually have an easier time today running $10bn than I did in 2007 running $500mn, because all the pressure back then was really on me to do the majority of everything. Today, there's guys that I've worked with for 5, 10 years, that have learned so many things that are very thoughtful in what they do. And so it makes my life much easier. And now I just have to manage and oversee it all. But it actually creates greater balance than I used to have.
Hailey Page: Wow, I love the comment you made about finding little ways to improve every day, because something that resonates with me is the idea that you don't know everything, and that there's always something new to learn. And so that always makes it exciting and all about the chase versus this moment in time where you feel successful.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah. It's very hard in the stock market to feel too successful. But in all seriousness, that's one of the great things about -- whether it's sports or the stock market -- you're knocked down a lot. It's tough. And you're gonna go through some good times and some bad times. It's a very humbling game, or sport, or business, or whatever. Because you're not always going to be successful. It's hard. And so if your focus isn't on just constantly getting better, and focusing on that instead of the day to day results, it's going to be a tough go.
Hailey Page: So in the process of you becoming you, is there a moment in your career that was super defining for you in knowing you'd be good at this? Like something from your past or your education, specifically.
Gabe Plotkin: I think -- so what happened was, I was at this other firm, and I went there. I didn't really know what I was doing. And I was an analyst. And after about 18 months, my boss left. And I was given the opportunity to step in. And I look back, I had no idea what I was doing. But we had pretty good -- [the fund] was actually just me. But I had good results for the back half of 2005, 2006. So Steve Cohen started -- his team started calling me, recruiting me. So I go to SAC -- it was called SAC at the time. And I get there, and I start -- in the first half of seven, I'm up some ridiculous amount. I'm just killing. They think I'm the greatest investor there is. They keep giving me more money, more money, more money. And the summer hits, and I have the worst month I've ever had. So I make a ton of money on like a relatively small capital base, and then as my capital base doubles, I have a bad month and lose like the large majority of what happened. And so you're sitting there and you're envisioning your first real payday in the industry, you're gonna get rewarded, it's a big deal to get past that hurdle -- and then all of a sudden, like, poof, I had lost 80% of it. And it was a lot to just mentally digest at the time. But our team was able to pull it together, deal with that adversity. And by the end of the year, we had actually made back everything we had lost, but it was a lesson in resilience, where it was like, Okay -- it's the first time really dealing with something and instead of panicking and not being able to handle the situation, we went back to what our process is and were able to navigate through it. And I think anything, when you've built that muscle memory to handle difficult situations, you start to know how to do that better in the future.
Hailey Page: Right.
Conrad Louis: I think you -- in your hiring process -- you're looking for people that know how to fail and bounce back.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah.
Conrad Louis: Because ultimately, they know who they are and what they can do.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah.
Conrad Louis: I feel like that's almost like -- that's a microcosm of your first failure in this world.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah. For me, it's really just focusing on people that have a pattern of success, no matter what they've done. And I really like people who have done a lot of different things, and have been successful in a variety of things, because -- I've talked about this before with Conrad, but in Wall Street, you go to -- we usually hire a guy first or second year out of a major banking program. And so these people, they've been successful their whole lives, for the most part. And they've gone to an Ivy League school sometimes, and they've gone to Goldman Sachs, but if they haven't done other things, be it sports or something else --and I like sports, because I think in sports, you fail a lot. And so you have to understand -- you build the ego to handle that and understand -- you're not defining yourself by every at bat, every shot, every throw. In academics, those who are successful, they don't really fail. I mean, the good students get 4.0s, which means they get perfect grades on everything. In Wall Street, no matter how good you are, you're gonna make mistakes almost half the time. So the ability to handle that and make smart decisions and understand when you're right and when you're wrong is really important.
Conrad Louis: It almost sounds as though you run Melvin Capital like a professional sports team. It's almost as if you look at the resiliency that you develop in sports, and how it's super translatable to the finance world, and it's just a major attribute that you're trying to hire from when you're looking for talent in your industry.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah. I think it's that, and it's also the desire to compete. If you're in this business, and you're like, I'm just gonna become a millionaire, or, 10mn, or whatever -- it's an okay goal to have, I have no problem with that. But if you're like, You know what? I just want to get better. I want to compete. I take so much pride in what I do, and how I go about it, that I'm going to give it my all every day. And that's a mentality that oftentimes you do find in athletics. And so I think the combination is really important. You've seen people that have been competing in one area, whether it's sports, or academics, or anything, but they're able to then apply that competitively to a different field. I think it's really important. Because for us, to go out there every day, and just grind and have that mentality, I do think a lot of that can come from sports.
Conrad Louis: I feel like that's a big part of, Haley, what's made you successful as well -- is your background in gymnastics.
Hailey Page: Yeah, I loved what you said about ego and psychology, in a workplace, because I think those two things are always overlooked when it comes to hiring people. There's a tendency to just look at the skillset and the numbers when really it does take this element of competition and accountability that you can very much develop doing sports your whole life. For those of you that don't know, Gabe is actually a minority owner of the Hornets with the one and only Michael Jordan. So we are actually super curious if you model any of your work ethics from Michael Jordan, or specifically, personal heroes in the sports realm.
Gabe Plotkin: I think inherently, as you build an organization and a team, it pulls from everything that you've encountered in your life. And when I was growing up, and it's interesting this year, because Michael filmed The Last Dance, which got incredible viewership -- partly because we were in a pandemic. But I think everyone got to appreciate, in the younger generation, the competitor that he was, and really the person that he was. But that was what I grew up with. And as somebody that loves the game of basketball, he definitely was an idol of mine. And his approach and his competitiveness and his desire to win and to compete, and really just keep driving with that in mind and try to elevate those around him, it's certainly played a part in how I just approach things in general. There's certain people you look up to for the successes that they've had, and the amazing thing was, he was one of those people for me -- he still is. But then obviously, I got to meet him and spend time with him -- related to the Hornets -- so that was a great thing. And then to bring back all these memories, and to see it up close, in The Last Dance, you're really reminded of really just what an incredible competitor he was. And you watch The Last Dance, and there's all these stories he shows, and things he does. There's one where, a guy, LaBradford Smith scores like 37 points, and Michael guarded him, and that never happens against Michael. And LaBradford goes up to him after the game and he says, like, Good game, Mike. And Jordan's so pissed that this guy's disrespected me. So like the first half -- they literally played the team the next night. He scores -- the first half, he tries to drop 37 on him in the half, just to show him, I'm gonna compete, and I'm gonna come out there. You don't do that to Michael Jordan. And he scored 36. He didn't quite get to 37. But it was in the half. But then people asked him years later, Did he ever say that? And he'd never said it. And it was just like, this is a guy who's so competitive that he's creating things in his mind just to motivate himself. And I do think there's an element of that where you're trying to compete and you're trying to motivate yourself and you want to be the best that you can be. And sometimes, you have to kind of create that self doubt that you perceive others to have, just to drive yourself.
Hailey Page: Fascinating. Yeah.
Conrad Louis: It's almost like there's a consistent theme, and definitely correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like with you, there's a consistent theme in that you put a premium on resiliency?
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah.
Conrad Louis: Because you know you're gonna fail, you know that's inevitable. And the insurance policy you take, when it comes to your business and yourself is that knowing failure is an absolute. You have to have -- you just have to have security that that's not going to wreck you, and that you have a game plan afterwards.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah. Well, because in the stock market, there's moments in times where you buy a stock, and you can lose a bunch of money. But that doesn't mean you're wrong. But you're going to come to that juncture, and you're going to have to kind of decide, Am I right or am I wrong? I've lost all this money. And I think some somebody who doesn't have the right self esteem or has ego problems, they may lead themselves to the wrong decision because they feel like it's an attack on them the person. And I think somebody who's more resilient and can kind of see past that is more focused on what's next, making the right decision at that point in time. And so--
Conrad Louis: Just eager to prove his point and prove his worth --
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah. And so they end up compounding an issue. And we had a guy like that. And it all became very competitive and nasty. And there's no room for that.
Conrad Louis: So you're saying you had a guy that you work with and it was just -- it was too much about self, and it wasn't enough about the team?
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah. Yeah. It didn't work out.
Conrad Louis: We both think you're the perfect person to be our first guest on this podcast because we look at our relationship as a team. And I know you look at Melvin Capital as a family-like team. And in that sense, one team member is picking up where there might be a deficit for another team member, but ultimately, it's about a greater thing than self. And I think it sounds like that's exactly how you run Melvin. I know that's how we look at our relationship and sort of our motto, like, neither one of us are greater than the relationship as a whole. And it's almost mission focused.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah. That's a great approach that you guys have. Maybe I should have you guys into my office.
Hailey Page: I wouldn't go that far. But actually, something Conrad has told me frequently is that you have a remarkable memory for sports statistics and stock behaviors. And memory is just one thing for me that I feel is my weakest attribute, and so I'm curious if this is something -- like your memory, do you exercise it on the daily or have you always had a stellar memory?
Conrad Louis: It's freaky. This guy, his sports statistics are -- he's like an automaton when it comes to sports statistics. And obviously, stock behavior. But you might expect that. But honestly, you might be better at sports statistics than stock behavior.
Gabe Plotkin: Probably am. I mean, look -- some people remember every aspect of evenings -- I meet somebody and I might forget their name five seconds after meeting them. People say, You got this great memory, how did you forget their name, or where you went out to dinner last night. I think there's -- the things I'm really passionate about, and numbers just kind of stick in my head, that those are the things I just focus on. And it's good in my position, because I have to look at -- we cover 500-600 companies. And so to kind of be able to digest everything my team is sending me, and really remember all the key points, it does come pretty naturally to me. So that's really positive, but it is --
Hailey Page: Okay, so I'm screwed, right?
Gabe Plotkin: But it is a little selective, because this aspect of my life -- I think it's sort of -- my wife says I'm very smart in certain areas, well, those are the two areas you named. Other areas, I got my own challenges.
Conrad Louis: Well, can't you remember a fabric from like, 2010 that you used on a runway show Hails?
Hailey Page: Sure. We can give myself credit there.
Gabe Plotkin: There you go.
Hailey Page: Oh, my gosh. So I love that you brought up your wife because this is a relationship, love, and stellar human-based podcast, but I just was curious if I could ask where you met your wife, or the first time you laid eyes on her. What was it like?
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah, it was -- I was drinking tequila, just like I am now. Actually, it may not have been tequila. But it was -- I was living in Chicago. And I was in New York for a couple days to look for an apartment. I had already accepted a job offer and I was moving to New York. And I had a friend's wedding that weekend from college. So we had several friends in town. So we all went out and went to a bunch of bars. I don't even remember where. And at the end of the night, it was probably 2-3in the morning, we were somewhere in the West Village, we went to a diner. And we had met some girls, we were hanging out with the girls at the diner, and then these two other girls came in, and they're probably a little more attractive than the girls we were with. And so my buddy immediately went over there and started talking to them. He did become the best man at my wedding. So I have to give him that. But I went over there, I said, Okay, yeah, I'll go sit with my buddy. And we kind of hit it off, my wife and I. And I said Look, I'm moving to New York in a week, I'll give you a call. That wasn't my initial plan moving in New York and immediately getting tied up, but we hit it off. And I actually -- it was my last night in Chicago, and I was making a bunch of calls, having fun, and I happened to call her that night. And it was her birthday. I didn't know. And so it was like, even -- I had gone back to New York, I called her, I'm like, it was your birthday. So that was kind of like a special thing. I was like I'm moving in a couple days, we'll go out. And so it was really cool. And Conrad kind of describes this -- when you guys were dating, there really were no rules. I think with a lot of girls that I'd dated in the past, everyone was playing games and thinking of rules. And with her, it was just very natural. It was like, I want to call her -- we want to hang out -- I'm going to call her. And she felt the same with me. And we just hit it off, and now we got a bunch of kids and all that good stuff.
Conrad Louis: Fast forward a couple years and you're on this podcast, man.
Hailey Page: Love Stories are our favorite stories.
Gabe Plotkin: All that glitters, right?
Hailey Page: Would you say your greatest investment in life is love?
Gabe Plotkin: Love or Amazon -- I don't know which one.
Hailey Page: I had too. Sorry, I had to go there.
Conrad Louis: And that's fair. That's fair, man. Okay. All right. So you can't say Michael Jordan. And I don't even know if you would, but who is your favorite sports hero?
Gabe Plotkin: Tom Brady.
Conrad Louis: Okay, so now that Tom Brady is with the Buccaneers, I feel like your loyalties a little bit divided. You're kind of a New -- you're not kind of a New England guy, you are the epitome of a New England guy. And you are -- Tom Brady's your hero, as you just said. What do you do?
Gabe Plotkin: ...
Conrad Louis: I love that this is the most difficult question you've answered tonight.
Gabe Plotkin: Geeze, how can I answer this? I'm actually happy for him. He's at this stage. He's 40. He's gonna be 43 I believe in August. Obviously, I know his birthday. And no -- but he's gonna be 43. He's starting to show the very subtle signs of the decline, which, given his age isn't surprising, but he's still playing at a very high level. And I want to seem to well. He's an amazing guy. And I think he's done everything right, and he handled this very well. But I'm still a Patriots fan. But they're in the NFC. So I can kind of root for Tommy and still root for the Patriots,
Conrad Louis: Okay, favorite quotes. Because you're huge on mindset. And you're huge on philosophy. And I feel like you're super intentional with how you run your business, and the attitude and state that you adopt when you're going into whatever you're going into. And so I feel like this is a good question to ask you. Your favorite quotes.
Gabe Plotkin: Well, it's funny. I have a friend who has a very big hedge fund. And I went over to visit it. And he's got incredible artwork on every wall. It's probably -- every piece is $30mn. And you look at it and you're like, Wow, that's just super impressive. You come over to my place, I got a bunch of quotes that cost nothing. But it's not that I'm trying to preserve money, it's more just like I'd rather my investors come in, and my team come in, and they see those quotes and it's more inspiring, and it's like the way we want to approach business. And it's actually amazing the response we get from investors who see these quotes -- and I think it tries to encapsulate the way we go about our business. But that's our office today. When we first launched, we just had one quote on the wall, so I'll take that quote. It's from Vince Lombardi, who obviously was the Super Bowl winning head coach of the Green Bay Packers in the 1960s -- obviously.
Conrad Louis: Hey, everyone knows this.
Gabe Plotkin: Yes. I mean, they should -- probably not on your podcast, but broadly speaking. But the quote is, and I'm reading it, it says, Winning is not a sometime thing, it's an all the time thing. You don't win once in a while, you don't do things right once in a while, you do them right all the time. Winning is habit. When we launched, I put that on our walls, because I felt that -- some people, they'd put all their effort in for a period of time, and then they disappear. And they're not able to consistently deliver what you need them to do. And I think, to be really successful, there's some people that figure different things out, but for the most part, people that are really driven to succeed and compete, and that they understand that there's no real shortcuts, you're gonna have to work hard, and you're gonna have to work hard every day. That approach, that mindset, just constantly doing things the right way, ultimately gets you to a better place in the end than if you were to take all the shortcuts anyway. And so when my guys -- my team joined, that was the way I wanted them to think, that if we approach things right every day, this will build a better foundation. These investments that we're making today will pay off in the future. And so we chose that quote and put on our wall.
Hailey Page: Oh my gosh. I love that. Because the only thing I remember from my parents' messages of major wisdom and quotes is that there is no shortcut for hard work.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah. That's true.
Hailey Page: There's no way around that. And so just always invest in the hard work. Putting the time in and showing up every single day. And I would be silly not to ask this for everyone out there is, we're in a very unprecedented time, is the investment in self, or is it looking at future opportunities for retirement -- if there was just one area that seems to be more lucrative and withstanding than others?
Gabe Plotkin: I think over time, if you invest in the stock market, you're gonna probably have a fairly reasonable return. Certainly relative to any other -- a lot of different vehicles right now, where interest rates are so low. So if people have some excess money that they don't need, and they're not trying to time the market -- like my sister -- I have a twin sister, and they have some excess money, not a lot, but she asked me years ago, what can I do with this money? And I said, Look, just buy these 15, 20 companies -- you're diversified across that. But they're great companies. They're the Microsofts, the Visas, the Amazons -- companies that you know are going to continue to grow competitive moats in their business. And they're going to grow a lot faster than the 50 basis points the bank's giving you. And over time, if you let that just ride and you're not trying to time the ups and downs, it's going to compound. And I think that's -- each person has their own individual situation. So somebody might want to buy a house, other people, they need to give the money to the family, or there's educational issues, or they're paying off loans. So every situation is different. But I think in general, the equity markets can produce pretty high returns relative to other things. And if you're wanting to invest in the long run, the tax base is lower. And companies compound. I bought Amazon in 2007 at $40. It's $3,100 today. I've been owned it the whole time -- I've traded it up and down. Probably -- that was good, not as good as being Jeff Bezos. I bring up the best one -- I got a million bad ones.
Conrad Louis: You gotta start with that.
Gabe Plotkin: I'm going to ignore everything that failed. But I mean, that tells you the power of compounding. And I don't think -- something like Amazon isn't the hardest thing to -- it's pretty clear for many, many years, and looking at your own habits, and consumer habits, that this company was creating a great competitive moat and were in the right business in terms of where the world was going. Apple's another one. You can buy some of these great businesses, and they're gonna be great many, many years from now. And they just compound.
Conrad Louis: Okay. So, this is sort of an underhand pitch. If you're not in the finance industry, what are you doing?
Gabe Plotkin: Probably something in sports. Even as a little kid -- it sounds like I'm from like a generation in like the 1920s. But the newspaper would come on a Sunday, and I would just sit there and go through every number, every baseball player, and I'd memorize them all. And that was what I -- I really enjoyed understanding -- I mean, that was fun. Yeah, I'd go visit my grandmother in Boston, and Boston had the Boston Globe. It was the best sports paper out there, and I'd get to really dive into all these numbers. And I enjoy that stuff. And so I think probably something down those lines, where you're using numbers and analytics to understand and predict who are going to be the best players -- which is basically what you're doing in stocks. You're just doing it with businesses as opposed to individuals.
Hailey Page: So shamelessly, one of my favorite movies of all time is Space Jam. Can you just indulge us for a teeny, tiny millisecond, on MJ.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah. The cool thing is, who you see is, or what you would expect is exactly what you get. Here's a guy who's super competitive. He's not hiding behind anything. If you watch The Last Dance -- he's very comfortable with who he is as a person and he's gonna say things that he truly believes. He has nothing to hide. And so sitting down and meeting him and hanging out with him, it's -- he's going to talk about the game of basketball and other parts of life like the way he sees it. And he's not hiding behind anything. And I think some figures in society, and sports figures, there's always something they're kind of hiding. And I think with him, it's pretty open. He's very comfortable with the person he is and stating the things he believes.
Conrad Louis: What was it like the first time you met him?
Gabe Plotkin: It was great. It's funny, because you try not to be like, Oh, my God, I'm meeting Michael Jordan, and you're going to go in there and you just blow yourself off because you're just overwhelmed with the moment.
Conrad Louis: I don't even know what I would say, I would just --
Gabe Plotkin: Well look, in my job, over the years, you meet with CEOs of every major company in America, over time. And so you've had these kinds of meetings. But with all that said, no one is Michael Jordan. And so you have lessons to draw on where you're not getting yourself psyched up in meeting probably the greatest individual athlete of all time. But it was very cool. We were having some drinks -- like myself, he likes tequila, the Cincoro brands that he's obviously created -- which, by the way, is a great tequila.
Conrad Louis: This is an unsponsored ad.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah. But -- Cincoro is also sponsoring the All That Glitters podcast. No, but, he loves the game of basketball. And he loves sports. And he loves to compete. And he loves to talk about a lot of different sports. And -- but he's also involved in a lot of businesses. And so there's a lot of things that we have in common that we'd like to talk about. And for me, growing up watching sports, loving sports, I remember pretty vividly a lot of key moments in his career. And not just with him, but just the game around him. And so we start talking about the game of basketball, and I think he kind of just gave me one of these looks like, This guy really does like the game of basketball. And I think that made him feel comfortable. And we enjoy talking. And that really allowed us to hit it off.
Conrad Louis: Was there a point where you felt like a little bit of synergy, like you recall the certain detail -- because you are almost a Rain Man when it comes to understanding sports moments, sports statistics. Was there a point where you felt like, Okay, I have Mike's attention.
Gabe Plotkin: There were just probably moments we were talking about the game and I would recall something or he would say something. I would be like, Yeah, that guy was on this team, or this happened in that game. And it almost seemed like I was scripting it, like how would anyone have this recollection of this absurd moment in time? But that's just kind of how I'm wired as it relates to sports, and so I remembered it. And he was a part of it, so I think he remembered it pretty well. So it definitely was -- it was a cool thing to talk about.
Conrad Louis: Is there anything we haven't asked you that you think would be a good ask?
Gabe Plotkin: The only thing I'd say is -- an organization. The one thing about Melvin that I definitely appreciate is just trying to -- it's just valuing people. And creating a culture where you build duration of all the people around you, and so -- there's so much turnover in a lot of hedge funds, and so they're constantly starting with a new team. And I think having a team --
Conrad Louis: Do you guys have much turnover?
Gabe Plotkin: We have almost no turnover. Our turnover's kind of forced, where it's like, Okay, there's always -- we have a lot of benchmarking in the sense that you got a lot of guys and people on your team and so if somebody's not at the level that you need them to be at, there does come a time where it's like, Okay, we need to improve and find ways to get better. And we know because it's not like there's just one guy, you got seven or eight people, and you see where everyone else is performing. A guy like Lucas, being with these people for many, many years, it's like, your ability to continue to compete at a high level, because you've all been doing it together. And that's a big difference maker. And I think a lot of people, at least in my industry -- there's tremendous turnover. And they don't really value the people that they work with. And so they're constantly trying to rehire and recreate situations and figure each other out and understand culture and work ethic. And for us, that's something that's... because we've all been doing it for so long. And so when we bring somebody in, when we bring these young guys in, they just slide right in. And it really allows you to keep building off a bigger base, whereas everyone -- not everyone else, but a lot of firms that don't value things the same way, they're always breaking everything down and rebuilding. And then they have a couple year period, and they break it down and they rebuild. And I think when you have the foundation in place, it's a lot easier to just keep moving forth.
Conrad Louis: There's a lot of value to having people that have been around for a while, people that have loyalty -- and loyalty stems from leadership. That is indisputable.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah.
Conrad Louis: And I think you've created -- part of why we wanted you on because I know it's so much a part of who you are. Being a good leader. You're constantly talking about trying to be a good leader for people. And you're such a big picture person. And so much of your of your focus goes into that. And I think it would be remiss to say that part of your success isn't because -- you're so good at building a team that has a common goal.
Gabe Plotkin: Yeah, absolutely.
Conrad Louis: The trickiest thing is just getting everybody on board to buy into the mission. And if you can do that -- and it's much easier if you have a good mission, and I feel like you guys do -- you can materialize great things. And you seem to consistently do that. And we're so grateful to have you onboard here.
Gabe Plotkin: Thank you guys for having me.
Hailey Page: I really appreciate the takeaways of never underestimating hard work and believing in the multifaceted characteristics of everyone. And that you're not just one thing, but specifically being a great leader and investing in the community and culture of your businesses. And using sports as a parallel for that is just really unique to hear. And even in design, I think that those ideas can be manifested in so many great ways to make people feel like they can perform their best, and we're all going toward a better future and a better day every day. So thank you so much for providing this value and --
Conrad Louis: Thanks Gabe. We're so grateful that you came on the podcast.
Gabe Plotkin: Awesome. Well, I'm glad.
Conrad Louis: You really set the bar low for future guests, man. Haha.
Hailey Page: Ditto to that.
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Wrap-up
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