Letter #221: Steve Cohen and Jawad Mian (2021)
Letter #221: Steve Cohen and Jawad Mian (2021)
Founder of SAC & Point72 and Founder of Stray Reflections | Inner Game with Steve Cohen
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Steve Cohen is the Founder of Point72 Asset Management and the owner of the New York Mets. Before starting Point72, he founded SAC Capital, which he grew to over $16bn in assets at its peak. Steve started his career as a junior trader in the options-arbitrage department at Gruntal & Co. and was running his own trading group when he left.
Jawad Mian is the Founder and Managing Editor at Stray Reflections, an independent global macro research and trading advisory with a focus on major investment themes. Recently, he was also a Partner at Karavan, a venture capital platform in Pakistan. Before founding Stray Reflections, Jawad was a Portfolio Manager at QInvest, where he managed $250mn across global and MENA equity markets. Prior to QInvest, Jawad was a Portfolio Manager at Rasmala. He started his career at CIBC Mellon, where he left as a Senior Fund Analyst.
Today’s letter is a conversation between Steve and Jawad. Jawad starts the conversation by asking Steve whether trading ever gets easier, what is morning routine is, if he ever pulls away from markets, what he did different from other traders early in his career, where his instinct to evolve comes from, lessons from the 90s, how he avoids losses, what is gut feeling to him, and coaching PMs and their common pitfalls. Steve then shares what his experience in March 2020 was and how he managed his mental and emotional state through that period, how he handles a losing streak and gets back on track, protecting his confidence, realizing trading didn’t define him, something he learned about himself recently, what has become more important and what has become less important after the pandemic, and what area of life he is improving and why it is essential to. Jawad wraps up the interview by asking Steve to discusses what are the main choices he made over his life that made him who he is, what success looks like to him and how that definition has changed over time, and for any parting words he has.
I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I do!
[Transcript and any errors are mine.]
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Transcript
Jawad Mian: The Prophet said, "In every craft, seek the expertise of the experts." And so I'm really grateful to you for taking the time to share your wisdom.
Steve Cohen: I'll give it my best--I don't know about being an expert, but I'll give it my best.
Jawad Mian: You know, last time we spoke, I shared with you how I find myself less interested in people's opinions and more interested in the essential truths and beliefs that guide them. Our opinions change--what we think about the markets can differ from one week to the next. What doesn't change is how we live our daily life. And I feel with everybody focused on the outer world, what I want to explore with you is to deepen knowledge of oneself. So I've got a bunch of questions that I hope to explore with you. The first being that you've been trading for 50 years now, when does it become easier?
Steve Cohen: When does--I'm not sure it ever becomes easier. I think mentally maybe it becomes a little bit easier, because you kind of been through so many different experiences that you kind of know that whatever you're going through at the moment, it's a moment in time, and things change. So you got a little perspective, perhaps. The day to day perhaps doesn't get easier. It's probably probably more competitive than it's ever been. Right? I mean, things move faster. The brain power in the industry is probably as strong as it's ever been. So from a competitive standpoint, it's more difficult. So, as someone who's been around for a long time, I've got to work harder to keep up from that standpoint. But I have wisdom. I've seen a lot of stuff. I look at markets maybe differently, was trained differently. Maybe that's an advantage, maybe not. And so, there are certain times when I think it is an advantage. Because I've seen stuff, I know how to handle volatility in ways maybe more analytical people don't know how to deal with it. But I just think from a day to days, if you've been around for a while, if you don't have perspective after doing this for 45 years, when are you going to get it? Okay? So I've got perspective.
Jawad Mian: So how do you start your day? What's your morning routine? From the time you wake up till markets open?
Steve Cohen: Well, during COVID, it's actually been a little bit easier, right? Because my commute is 10 feet--from my bedroom to my office, which I kind of like. I typically--I have to get my sleep. So I'm not getting up and looking at markets in the middle of the night, if I can avoid it. I typically get up around 6:45/7. I hang with my wife for about a good 30 minutes, we turn on the news. I don't run out--I'll look at my phone, my Bloomberg, just to see where it is. If it's really moving, maybe I'll get up. But most of the time, I'll just hang with my wife and we'll just start the day watching the news. And I'll hit the desk around 7:30 and check out the markets. I get a morning call while I'm in bed, just to hear what's going on. Most of the time, things aren't that critical, from a day to day, that I have to do something so impactful. I've set my portfolio up that way, where I don't have to be trading all day, all night. I try not to trade in foreign markets, myself, because I value my sleep and I've hired people to do that. And so I've tried to make my life a little bit easier. So I'm essentially trading US markets and farmed out everything else. So I get to the desk and I'm IMing with all my portfolio managers, getting updates in all their sectors, what's going on for the day. I'm perhaps doing a meeting with my management staff. We do a risk meeting eight o'clock every morning, getting an update on what's transpired. I've gotten reports before that, so I'm ready, the night before. I'm dealing with any issues that we have to deal with. I'm the CEO of my firm, so I'm wearing two hats. I'm the CEO and I'm also running a portfolio. I spend most of my morning dealing with the portfolio. I'm making sure that I'm ready go for the day, which means just making sure I'm up on all the news, making sure that any new ideas that are in the firm, hopefully, I've read them or have talked to my portfolio managers and analysts on what's going on. I'm running less capital than I used to. So a lot of this is just keeping in contact with what's going on in the firm. And in farming out the exposure to--we have 150 different portfolio managers across the various asset strategies. So I'm not taking it upon myself to--I'm not the focal point anymore. And I've built it that way. Because that's a real business. So I'm just trying to keep myself in the markets, so that in the conversations I have with my portfolio managers, it's a substantive conversation, so that I'm up to speed on what, just what they're doing, how they're thinking. I pick up things, I see--I can help them in how they think and perhaps help them and how they construct their portfolios. And so, I want to stay in touch with the markets, but the reality is: the firm's a lot bigger than me today--which is actually very liberating. Which is why I'm--maybe it helps with perspective, back to perspective, right? So I feel liberated, free, I'm able to do what I want. But it's been that type of market where maybe my skills come to the fore. And so, it's--markets are--every day is dynamic. And so, that's what makes it interesting.
Jawad Mian: I mean, I've noticed we always speak on the weekends, so do you take time off? Or have you ever pulled yourself away from markets?
Steve Cohen: I really don't. Weekends, I typically--I mean, I typically do my--running my firm, I'll do my calls with my various management team, say, Saturday mornings, Sunday mornings. If I'm driving somewhere, I'll call them for 15 minutes and see what's going on. And I'll do my Sunday night calls with my PMs, find six to eight of them and talk to them about their ideas. But usually I'm pretty free otherwise, during the weekend. Obviously now I own a sports team, I'm heading to the game today. I just had a breakfast with somebody who is building a titanium mine and trying to build a process to refine that titanium someone introduced me to. So I use my weekends to meet people who do different things, kind of expand my horizons a little bit. And spend time with my family and my wife and try to live more of -- a more full life. But it's hard to get away from markets. Your portfolio doesn't know that you want to take time away from--I mean, it's going to move regardless, so you can't pretend like it doesn't exist.
Jawad Mian: What we find across elite performers is that they're operating not just at a level that most people find difficult and don't aspire to, but it's a totally--another higher level that most people don't even know exists. So when you think back to that, Steve, what were you doing that other people would find crazy? What was that passion and obsession that sort of drove that performance?
Steve Cohen: Well, I think I crept up on the hedge fund industry. We were doing it a different way. When I came into the markets, most people were--it was the Soroses, the Julian Robertsons, sort of this--very analytical. We weren't that analytical. We were trading. And the markets were--I entered right at the beginning of the bull market in 1992. That was an eight year bull market. So we certainly had the wind behind us. And we weren't weren't running a lot of capital. So you could trade and get a lot of velocity with your capital and generate real returns. And so yeah, I think we showed a different way of doing things that I think people then said "What the hell's going on over there?" And tried to emulate to some degree. The way it works, any strategy is gonna get copied. And that's what happened. Eventually people spun off from your original firm and they set up their own firms and that's just the way it is. Competition comes in any industry and dilutes returns over time. So we were doing it a little bit differently, and it really came from my own background of trading. You know, I trained myself. And so it wasn't like I had come up with this incredible strategy. It's the only thing I knew. But I was good at it. And so I taught people how to do it within--who had come to train with me and work with me. And so we developed our own style that worked for us pretty well in the 90s. But I also realized that that style was not scalable. And so to scale, we had to morph into something different and become more traditional--if we wanted to scale our assets--and yet, retain that sort of style of velocity. Of not, I would say, trading on a daily basis, but retain that ability to move in markets. And so we morphed into sort of some combo of that, retaining some of our old ways of doing things, but also expanding into new areas that we--and expand our repertoire. And so I felt pretty strongly that to continue to succeed, we had to morph. And that we had to change. I used to drive my management crazy, because I used to want to tear down my firm while we were doing well, and they'd just go crazy, like, What are you doing? And I just felt like--because I always felt like--I kind of felt like where we had to get to. And everyone just kept saying, Well, we're doing well, why do you want to change? And I just said, because I know this is--we're not going to get to where I want to get to. And so I think I've torn my firm down a few times over the years to get to where I thought we needed to, the next iteration of the firm. And that's worked for me.
Jawad Mian: That's uncommon in the industry. So where does that instinct come from? To evolve?
Steve Cohen: I'm just restless. I can't help it. I'm never satisfied where I am. It's not because I'm just--I'm not happy. I just see things. And I say, we can do that. We can go from here to there. There's no reason to stop here. And it's just -- just to be able to do it. It's not about making more money, it's not about -- it's about, we can accomplish that. Because we have the capabilities of doing that. And listen, I look around the industry, and I watch what other people do. The beauty of the industry we're in is we can all root for each other. Because it's not like a zero sum game. Economies grow. I can root for Dan Loeb, I can root for Dan Sundheim. I can root for everybody. Because just because they're making money doesn't mean they're taking it away from me. But if they're doing something new and different, just like I'm doing something new and different, I'm going to look and go, Wow, good for him. What are they doing, and is that something we should consider? And so I'm always looking around, just saying, Wow, is that something we should be doing? Or is that something that I might say, They're good at it, but we shouldn't be doing that.
Jawad Mian: From your early 90s lessons, were there any risk management rules that you sort of adhere to from then onwards to today? How do you avoid losses?
Steve Cohen: Oh, listen, you're gonna lose money, okay? You gonna take risk, you're gonna lose money. I think the three things is: liquidity, leverage, and concentration. Those are the three rules. If you're in illiquid stuff, that's a problem. If you're using too much leverage, that's a problem. And if you too concentrated, that's a problem. So doesn't mean that if you have one of them, maybe it works, if you have two of them, uh oh. If you got three of them, you're whistling past the graveyard. The markets are -- you've seen 100 examples. We just saw it with the guy from Asia. It works until it doesn't. What's the strategy? What was the exit strategy? I don't even know what it was. How was that person going to get out? I've seen it over and over again. You just have to be careful.
Jawad Mian: There has to be something different you're doing on a daily basis when you're looking at well [crosstalk].
Steve Cohen: Well, I mean, clearly, I'm not -- at that point, I was trading a lot. So I was taking losses, but... I'm always worried about -- I don't look at my winners, I look at my losers as I'm losing money. Why am I losing money? I'm focused on my losers. If I'm making money on something, I'm good. I'm focused on why something's not working. And try to figure out why. It may be that it's just -- could be part of some sort of factor move or sector move that I actually think is wrong, and I'm willing to hold on to it. But I'm focused on my losers. Am I missing something? Is there something changed? That's where I focus on. And if I feel like something's changing, or I feel like I don't know why, I will reduce. Just because some -- I get a lot of work from my people, analytical work. We're only right 55% of time, 52% of the time. They're not right 80% of the time. So I've got to sit there and use my judgment and see what the markets are telling me. And listen, I can always come back to that name if I feel like things have changed or the timing's better. And so, I use my eyes. I look around, see what the markets are telling me across asset classes. And perhaps I get better uses for my capital. So I'm always focused on where the portfolio is not working.
Jawad Mian: What is gut feeling to you?
Steve Cohen: Oh, gut feel is more than gut feel. It's your unconscious working. It's something that is triggering thoughts that are more than just... it's your eyes, it's your brain, it's your intuition, it's your experiences that you're picking up that is more than just a balance sheet or an income statement or some recommendation. It's not just something that just blows past you. When you're you're sitting in front of screens all day, your brain is working, you've got to listen to what's going on in your brain. What's the what's the conversation going on there? Are people aware of the conversation that's going on in their brain? What is it? Is it fear? Is it I'm gonna lose money? Are you ignoring what's going on, what your real thoughts are? Are you waiting for someone to tell you what to do, as opposed to acknowledging your own thoughts and your own beliefs? That's the internal conversation that you really got to get a handle on. And I think it's really important. And I'm really aware of it. And really aware of the mistakes I might make, really aware when I might sell something when, let's say, I'm drawing down, and I need to reduce. So which positions do I reduce? Do I reduce the easiest one or the hardest one? The one that's working versus the one that -- these are the conversations you have in your head, like how do you... these are decisions that matter. And what's the conversation going on in your head? And how are you going to deal with it? It really gets down to knowing yourself and knowing the mistakes that you make, the common mistakes, and avoiding them. And doing it, and knowing, and being aware. I'm not sure everyone's aware. I deal with this all day long.
Jawad Mian: You were the first, at least from what I've seen amongst the first -- to really see the value of coaching your traders, hiring coaches to work with your traders. And I've also noticed through hiring PMs over the years that the biggest roadblock is usually themselves. So what are some common pitfalls that you've seen?
Steve Cohen: Well, I think people sabotage themselves. People are afraid of success. You can have some people, really bright, and somehow, they just somehow--when you get to the end of the year, they just haven't somehow performed at a level that they expect themselves to. People have a funny way of looking at the world and the way that they cut the data, and that -- they are -- they're not honest with themselves. And because they're not honest with themselves, or that they are maybe not looking at things the way the world really is, as opposed to the way that they want the world to be. It gets reflected in how they run their portfolios. This is a conscious fight on a daily basis. This is the are in a war that people have to fight to get to what the truth is, and ultimately what success looks like. How you get closer to success. And the more truthful you can be with yourself and the more that you can be reflective and get to real transparency with yourself, the more likely that you will fix the problems that you have, and deal with the issues that you have, so that you can perform at a level of maximum performance. The more you're willing to ignore it, the more that you're willing to blame the outside world for your problems. It's the market -- you always hear people say, Oh, well, the market -- it's the market. Like, What the hell does that -- I don't even know what that means. As opposed to -- what did you do? The world is going to exist whether you like it or not. Like I always say, I gotta live in this world, I don't create it. The world is happening. Okay, what are you going to do about it? And it's amazing how people attribute outside forces to what's happening to them, as opposed to being accountable and dealing with it.
Jawad Mian: What would be a glimpse, Steve, of your experience in March 2020? And more specifically, how did you manage your mental and emotional state through what was probably the most volatile period in history?
Steve Cohen: The more volatile it gets, the more calm I get. Managing the firm -- if you ask people how I get most periods, I get very calm, I get very thoughtful. I actually get more involved. I actually enjoy it. I take it up to another level. When things are going well, you can kind of be a little less serious. You're just doing well, and you don't have to -- you can enjoy a little bit. But when things get serious and vo -- that's when you really got to take the game up a notch. And really be thoughtful. My focus goes up. I actually get very calm in my decision making. I don't panic. When I'm losing money, I'm okay. I don't -- my relationship to money is not critical. It doesn't throw me. It's really about making decisions that make sense. I don't know why I'm that way. That's how I'm wired. I always hear stories about other competitors and other firms and how they make decisions. I seem very reactionary. I'm the opposite. I lean into it, as opposed to -- I kind of enjoy it to some degree. I think it's kind of fun. I embrace it. And listen, we were drawn down, like everybody else. So it's not like we're sitting there in good shape. Typically, when you have drawdowns early in the year, those are always toughest, because you don't have any profits to offset them. So you're really like behind the eight ball. And actually -- it's two years in a row we've had that, because we had the -- in January, we had the wild stuff with GME this year, and last year, obviously, with COVID. So that happens, and that's part of the gig. So I get very calm in those situations, and very thoughtful. I kind of like it. I kind of get into it. It gets my juices going.
Jawad Mian: Is there anything you do to manage your state to like claw back?
Steve Cohen: Well, listen, you can't make it all back at once. So you just have to -- you got to have perspective. It's still a long year ahead.
Jawad Mian: So how do you handle a losing streak and get back on track? Like how do you protect your confidence?
Steve Cohen: When you go into a slump, you have to identify why. Has your process changed at all? Or has something changed that you haven't identified yet. And so, weekends are really good times to think about stuff because your mind's a little more free. Because I think we're in a regime change here. And the types of names that are working are not names that typically I've looked at over the last few years. And that's typically what happens when you get changes. It takes a while to adapt to the new world. I'm trying to think about what's changed? What's happening? Is there something I can do about it? Do I need to kind of change my focus a little bit, become -- start looking at other types of situations just to start to become a little bit less narrow in my focus. Just make sure that I'm -- perhaps get involved in other types of situations so the proposal is more well rounded. And so trying to -- seriously -- analyze why it's happening, and be thoughtful about it as opposed to just attribute it to not working hard enough. I'll work an extra two hours -- I'll get on the phone -- and yeah, those are all good things. Get on with my portfolio managers, try to maybe be a little more focused. So it's just capturing -- making those little shifts to -- I'm human, and...
Jawad Mian: Does it impact your confidence as well, though?
Steve Cohen: No. It would have to be a significant drawdown over months and months for me to really get -- where, Geeze, did I lose it? Listen, we're all human. I'm going to be 65 years old. I can imagine a time like, Hey, the game passed me by. I guess we're all -- as we get older, we're all thinking that. I'm motivated by that. So I'm always trying to look around the corner, trying to think about what's next. I'm at the point now where I'm less excited by running a portfolio, more about what's next for the firm. And what to build for the firm that's interesting. Like, I've finally decided I've got to get -- I'm doing a deep dive into crypto. I'm fully converted. And I know I'm gonna -- I have an old saying, At the poker table, you got to pay to learn. There's no way around it. You can talk all you want, but you got to get in the game. And I'm hopeful that we'll be able to start building something within Point 72 in addition. And we're in the process of starting to think about that. And so, that's an example of throwing myself into something. The timing isn't -- the timing is never good. Who knows? I don't know if these things are gonna go up or -- I mean, forget Bitcoin. I don't care about Bitcoin. I care more about the technology behind blockchain and how transformational it is, and how disruptive it could be. And I feel like the way that those markets are developing could be a real interesting adjacency to what we do at Point 72. And so -- I'm not missing this. I'm not going to miss this. And I already feel like I missed the first part of it. But I still feel like it's early. And it's an example of wanting to look forward and take some risk. I may look foolish initially, but you size it accordingly. Learn the game. And then, when you're confident, then take it to the next level.
Jawad Mian: You said something recently, Steve, which I really enjoyed listening to. You said Trading doesn't define me as a person.
Steve Cohen: No.
Jawad Mian: I'm sure that wasn't the case for the Steve who was in his 30s and 40s.
Steve Cohen: That's correct.
Jawad Mian: So when did you come to that realization? And what does define you now?
Steve Cohen: Well, I think I realized somewhere along the way, that actually, the skills I have, are actually -- I always thought my skills were narrow. But they're not. Like, they're actually -- my ability to look at situations and kind of ask questions and kind of ferret out what's going on -- I can take in almost pretty much any anything. And so I've kind of expanded my horizons, which makes it a lot more fun. So now I'm doing lots of VC stuff. Not just because it's hot, but because it's interesting. Obviously, the baseball stuff has been -- that's just for fun, but it's a whole new world, a whole new language. It seems pretty -- well, it seems pretty pedestrian. It's baseball -- what's the big deal? It's complicated! But the way I think about how -- the questions I ask my portfolio managers, the analysts, the way I interview -- all this stuff that I developed over the years is pretty applicable in other situations. So I'm able to kind of realize I can use these skills. And they work. And so I feel a little bit like, Wow, I feel like now I can expand my horizons in lots of different places. And so I'm not defined as just a trader or a hedge fund guy. Now I feel like I can explore lots of different areas and feel like I can be competent in those areas. Which is just kind of fun.
Jawad Mian: What's something you've learned about yourself in the last 12 months?
Steve Cohen: Hmm. Well, without question, I don't have to be in the office. I mean, that's -- how phenomenal is that? I mean, I got to be in the office because absentee ownership does not work. But I don't see myself in the office more than two or three days a week. Which is really liberating. There's no reason for it. I can run my firm from anywhere. Communications are fine. The reality is, I have people all over the world -- they never see me. I mean, I've got offices and it's already running that way. So some notion in my head that I had to be there on a daily basis, just not true. And so that's pretty liberating. And I think that's the real message over the last 12 months,
Jawad Mian: What has become more important to you after the pandemic, and what has become less important to you?
Steve Cohen: Well, I would say I've really enjoyed spending time with my wife. We had the best time during COVID. I mean, just hanging together. I mean, like, I guess a lot of relationships were defined during this period. We've seen a lot of couples break up. And you either really enjoyed it, or you really didn't. It was a real test. And we really enjoyed it. Which is another reason why I want to make sure I spend more time here, and less time in the office. I think I can run my firm from home, and I'm okay. You realize how much of your time gets taken with silly things, and how much -- that's the one thing I'm lacking -- is time. I need more time -- to do all the things I really want to do. Not the things that people want me to do. And how I get trapped by people needing my time in situations that perhaps are not the best use of my time. Having a little bit of separation like that gives me the ability to map my time out a little better.
Jawad Mian: What area of your life are you busy improving? And why is it essential to?
Steve Cohen: Hm. Yeah. I would say learning new things, exploring. I really enjoy meeting new people, listening to them. Having that time -- I mean, COVID really gave me that opportunity to be free to -- most of them obviously with Zooms, but having that ability to kind of do some interesting things that maybe I would have been caught up doing other things. I like exploring, I like -- what's going on in the world and how -- all this stuff ends up coming back to the hedge fund and to how it affects my thinking. And the older I get, the more I want to be a little bit more of a thinking about what's happening in the world on a more global basis. Get my head out of the screens. I think that's the killer, is having your head in the screens all day. You just miss the forest from the trees.
Jawad Mian: What are the main choices, Steve, that made you who you are today? Do you have any wounds? And let me explain that. So like Tony Robbins asks this question, Whose love did you crave growing up? And when I think about that, for me, it was my father. It was my father because he was exceptionally busy. He was a successful entrepreneur and I rarely got to see him. And we were four sons. I was number three. And so because I craved for his love, I wanted to speak to him in his language, which is what really made me over-ambitious, strive, work really hard to get his acknowledgment, to see me. Funny thing is, even now, I haven't gotten that acknowledgement. But I love him. But if it wasn't for the role model that he sort of set for me, if it wasn't for that sort of wound, and I say the wound not literally, but more poetically, because as Rumi says, The wound is where the light enters you. So I've been -- and I realized that I've been really chasing, striving, to get that acknowledgement from my dad, that -- I'm proud of you. He hasn't said that. He hasn't just like patted me on the back. That keeps me going -- to at some point -- reach a point where I can sort of just get that acknowledgement, just get that sort of love in that manner. And it's really -- I realized that at some conscious level, at some subconscious level, I made that choice. That that's what's going to drive me and I'm grateful for it as well, because it's given me what I -- and put me in this in this position. So that's an example of a wound that I think about, and I'm healing it now, actually. After a long time, I found a book that I was looking for. It talks about how a man's life is shaped by his relationship with his father.
Steve Cohen: Yep.
Jawad Mian: And it's such a fascinating book that I'm reading now. And it explains a lot.
Steve Cohen: Right.
Jawad Mian: And so like, when you think about this question, like, what comes to your mind?
Steve Cohen: Listen, I can relate to that. I'm one of eight kids. And I can remember my parents saying to me, It's too bad you weren't in a family with just two kids, because you really deserve a lot more attention than you get. And so I just think, yeah, I used to really -- my father liked to play golf, and I used to love going with him just to spend time with him on the golf course. And if I played badly on the golf course, I would get so miserable, because I wanted to show him like -- that was so important to me. And yeah, so I can relate to that. I didn't get the attention that I wanted. And listen, I was the best athlete in the family, I was probably the smartest in the family. And it just didn't mean anything, because -- they were just -- listen, I have seven kids today, from two different wives. I remember when I was younger, just laughing at my dad, said that's ridic -- you've got eight kids. And then he started laughing at me when he was -- he's not alive anymore -- when he was alive. Having eight kids is just insane. Having seven kids, and -- I know what it's like. Trying to spend time with all of them is really hard. Especially given all the other demands of time and things like that. And so I can relate to wanting that time and wanting that acknowledgement. It's probably driven me, to keep going. Probably in the same kind of search for acknowledgement. So maybe I've taken something that -- is that a negative or something? I don't know -- and turn it into a positive. And now I'm hardwired that way. And I do it because I -- now it's turned into just a desire to just keep -- just to be the best I can be no matter what. I see my friends, and a lot of them are either semi retired -- they don't look happy. They don't look like they know what they're doing or have any idea what they're doing. They sort of lost. I feel blessed that I have this opportunity to have so many ways of expressing myself in the world. But it's -- yeah. To your point, I know exactly what you're talking about, because I used to sit with my parents at the dinner table. I was the only kid that would do that, and just sit with them every night. At dinner. They would have dinner separate from us. Just so I could be with them. And so I found my way along the way to get my time. But that was important to me. So I get it. Yeah. Absolutely.
Jawad Mian: What does success look like to you? And how has that definition changed over the years?
Steve Cohen: God -- the way I feel now is like, it's about generosity of spirit. Like it's not success --there's no more success. Like, I don't even know what that is. Like, it's meaningless to me. It's about impacting -- people might -- perfect example: I bought the Mets. Now people say, Well, that's a vanity play. I wasn't sure I wanted to buy them. But I did it -- I said, if I can turn this team around, I can make millions of people happy. And it sounds hokey, but it's exactly why I did it. The magnitude of the amount of lives I could affect would be remarkable. Yeah it's only baseball, but you can't believe how people are passionate about this. And so that's why I'm on Twitter. I mean, the conversations I have with -- like, it's all about connecting. And that I could change people's lives in some way that's unique. And so that's where I'm at now. I'm at this point where I can be generous of spirit. And so I can do all these different things and I think about them as how I can affect that person's life, and how can I help them think about what's going on, and how can I help them accomplish -- like, even in my firm, I run my firm, like -- it's not like I give you capital, you give me performance. I owe them too. I owe them a commitment that at the time they're at my firm, that I'm going to support them and I'm gonna give them everything, we have to make their experience as great as possible. And that's my -- so it's a two way commitment, not a one way commitment. So it's about giving back any way I can. And it doesn't -- and yet, I can have a successful business, and a successful business life. And I don't have to earn every last dime, and I don't have to -- it all works well together, and actually makes for -- I'm happier, my employees are happier, my life feels better -- feels more fulfilling. It actually -- it's kind of a cool place to be. And so I love this age. I think it's amazing. It's an amazing spot to be. Like, I can't believe -- this is like, Wow. And so that's where my head's at now. And I'm grateful for that.
Jawad Mian: Well, I mean, Steve, I can't thank you enough. Any parting words or advice for me?
Steve Cohen: Well, we've gotten to know each, Jawad, and I know you're on your journey. And I know you're always thinking about stuff. That's why I enjoy your conversations, because you're spiritual and searching, and I know you're not standing on your laurels, and you're always trying to move forward. So you're an inspiration too. So keep going. Keep going for it. That's all I can say. Because it's the journey that matters, not the result.
Jawad Mian: I wish you could hug it out, Steve. Haha.
Steve Cohen: Yeah. Anyway, I enjoyed it, Jawad.
Jawad Mian: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It really means a lot to me.
Steve Cohen: Yup. We'll talk soon.
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Wrap-up
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